Does British boat building have a future?

henryf

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In an adjoining thread covering Fairline’s demise people went down the well worn path of suggesting builders should go back to their roots and build smaller, cheaper boats. Quite rightly others pointed out that many of the base costs are the same for small cheap boats as they are for larger more expensive boats. Cars were mentioned and it was accepted that whilst someone like Rolls Royce could prosper based on satisfying the needs of a tiny proportion of the world’s wealthy leveraged on good design and British heritage mainstream car production gravitated towards lower production costs. That means factories outside the UK.

The number of boats built in the UK is tiny. Sunseeker build 150 boats a year, Princess under 250 and Fairline less than 50. On the world boating stage these are tiny numbers. The Beneteau group builds as many individual model ranges as Sunseeker build boats.

British boatbuilding isn’t trying to court the masses, they’re chasing a small percentage of the one percenters. Yes, they exhibit at the Southampton boat show where the great unwashed arrive by the coach load to buy paddle boards and over priced chicken nuggets but it’s almost a PR exercise to show the country what an amazing product they can build. A few owners enjoy wandering round and having a cup of tea in the calm of the hospitality area but the builders don’t expect to sell to everyone who walks through the door.

When you set your stall out to satisfy the needs of the wealthy you’re giving yourself a difficult task. Being British we strive for perfection even in unseen areas. I found it really interesting crawling round voids and engineering spaces at the recent Boot Dusseldorf show. Most of the boats I looked at were in stark contrast to the British boats. Clearly the foreign buyer isn’t bothered by batteries sitting loose in open trays rather than secure in gas tight vented boxes, easy clean flow coating to the bilge spaces sadly omitted on foreign boats even when those spaces were used for storage - in an attempt to utilise space left over from a less than perfect design.

British boat building has pushed its self hard by constantly using home grown competition as the benchmark. Seeing Princess at Dusseldorf you could be in no doubt that it’s worked. Every inch designed to maximise return in terms of space and volume for a given hull length. A refined timeless style that doesn’t need to rely on gimmick, very British and I think that has appeal on the world stage.

The problem Princess and other brands face is building the boats profitably. Trying to do the right thing in all those hidden areas comes at a cost. One option is to perfect your build process and that’s the direction being taken by the current owners of Princess. We’ll wait to see if it works. The other consideration is price. Do you try to compete with other, potentially lesser brands or do you just say that’s the price, take it or leave it. Hermes charge £30k for a handbag and there’s a waiting list.

Where Fairline went wrong was failure to invest in design. Whilst Princess created internal volume and huge windows Fairline remained in the 1990’s with small windows and cramped spaces. I’m specifically interested in the mid 50 foot market. It took until 2016 for Sunseeker to catch Princess up with the Manhattan 52 Mk2 and staggeringly it took Fairline until 2022 to catch up with the Squadron 58, 10 years behind Princess. So their failure isn’t a shock and I’m not sure what a potential buyer of Fairline gets, it isn’t a future proof design portfolio and that’s what you need. You’re only as good as your next boat.

On a world stage selling British boat building is commercially viable. The American market looks set to grow and we are very well received there. In Asia and the Middle East we also have strong footholds. Within Europe we can definitely hold our own. So yes, I do think, like Rolls Royce, it has an exciting future.
 
"Fairline less than 50" are you sure about that Henry ? I'm based in Ipswich and there seems to have been a steady flow of boats being finished here.
 
I think what we most learn from these types of thread is just how many experts there are who have never been involved in any aspect of boat building or selling, yet have all the answers!

I'm surprised none have them have bought Fairline and implemented their ideas, I wonder why that is... 🙂
 
It doesnt help when employer's national insurance contributions are raised by the government in the case with major builders like Fairline, Princess etc etc there is more than just a small squad of men building the boats.
Just my Opinion and not getting political just factual.
 
Henry, I’m not convinced that a comparison with Rolls Royce is appropriate? RR costs are hidden in BMW’s R&D. The power trains, electronics, suspensions are derivatives of the 7 series. All the clever manufacturing is carried in Germany, with the final trim, assembly and bespoking in Goodwood. Are RR’s profitable? There may be 1 or 2 bean counters in Munich who might know? There is no doubt that Sun/Prin/Fair make highly desirable boats. None of them currently do this profitably. Those of us who have walked the factory floors might make some savings?
 
I think it’s more of a change of the demographics of the buyers . Not the structural U.K. manufacturing issues raised here and on other threads eg FL s demise and S/Skr laying off workers .
Although what Jon’s ^ touched upon the NIc raise and soon beefed up “ workers rights “ , extra div tax etc from Gov policy are headwinds that this cottage industry could do without …….and gen U.K. industry if they are to thrive ( AKA “ growth “ ) .

Returning to my point the thick end of £1 M entry to a decent fairprinseeker loaded with todays luxuries is too much .
Folks that brassed up might consider diverting such spare cash into a holiday home , giving there kids a lift up the property ladder , or more likely spending it ( small increments) on the plethora of social media accessible , advertised other leisure activities around the world . Freeing themselves from the hassle of using free time to go to the boat .

If this is correct then the buyers pool has shrunk and is continuing to shrink leaving the builders with too much capacity.

@ Ari …iam not telling you how to build a boat , make a success in the U.K. , I am telling you it’s a shrinking market , not quite like starting up a B+W tv factory in the early 70 s but it’s something you ought not to invest in .

You see in 1973 1/2 the tvs sold were U.K. B+W and the other 1/2 Japanese colour …..and this thread is indirectly asking should I invest in U.K. tv production.
I am saying peeps don’t want to watch B+W tv s any more …..no matter how well built Dynotron .

Maybe Sunseeker might survive as a niche plastic SY builder bcz it’s already gotten a foot hold and WW brand reputation . But deliver fewer boats and greater overall L summed .

The Italians will beat FL / Priny into the ground in the under 100 ft at every length inc sub 30 ft starters . 50 ft open WA s and 60-80 ft FB s ,
 
Henry, I’m not convinced that a comparison with Rolls Royce is appropriate? RR costs are hidden in BMW’s R&D. The power trains, electronics, suspensions are derivatives of the 7 series. All the clever manufacturing is carried in Germany, with the final trim, assembly and bespoking in Goodwood. Are RR’s profitable? There may be 1 or 2 bean counters in Munich who might know? There is no doubt that Sun/Prin/Fair make highly desirable boats. None of them currently do this profitably. Those of us who have walked the factory floors might make some savings?
You are correct but the point is 6,000 people a year line up to hand over half a million quid for a car based on the same qualities a Princess offers. They could pay a lot less and drive away in a 7 series.

But they don’t.

How price sensitive to Prestige, Azimut, Absolute, Galeon, Beneteau etc do Princess have to be?
 
How price sensitive to Prestige, Azimut, Absolute, Galeon, Beneteau etc do Princess have to be?
Trouble is, the "one percenters" (to use your definition) who don't care about prices can already pick other builders to whom Princess can't hold a candle in terms of quality and customization - let alone brand recognition.
Which is the only point where your automotive comparison makes sense, but very differently from the way you suggest, because Princess as a brand is akin to BMW at best, and remains nowhere near RR!
So, it seems to me that Brit builders are stuck between a rock and a hard place, because they can neither compete pricewise with Galeon et all (and never will, for very obvious reasons), nor quality-wise with the top dogs of this industry. And it would be extremely hard, expensive and time consuming for them to even just try to get up there, for equally obvious reasons, and with zero guarantee of success.
BTW, if there's one brand which could possibly be in a slightly better position at least in terms of brand recognition, imho it's S/skr, rather than Prin - even if personally, when it comes to their actual boats, I tend to prefer the latter.
Which is totally academic anyway, because I'm not going to sign on the dotted line for any other boat purchase during this life!
 
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Henry, whilst you are well respected in this parish and a man of wealth having bought a large Princess . Now me being one of your great unwashed , you should be thankful of us because if we did buy your old boats in the second hand marked, you would not be buying new boats. Now over the years I know where I stand in the real world, I wondered where do you see yourself either in the real world or your world .
 
Henry, whilst you are well respected in this parish and a man of wealth having bought a large Princess . Now me being one of your great unwashed , you should be thankful of us because if we did buy your old boats in the second hand marked, you would not be buying new boats. Now over the years I know where I stand in the real world, I wondered where do you see yourself either in the real world or your world .
I was upset to see his comment calling less fortunate people "The Great Unwashed" totally unnecessary.
I suppose to be expected from a "used car salesman"!
 
I think the problem is not in the overall design but in the process used to build the boats.
If you look at any boat on a size by size basis the engines cost the same, the fibreglass materials are about the same and they all have similar interiors etc.
You can argue that a Princess Interior is better "quality" than say a Monte Carlo or Fairlines windows are too small by current designs styles but they don't make any money despite selling a few hundred boats a year. Selling them is not the problem, it is making them at a profit which they do not seem able to solve.
The French and Italian boat builders are very profitable.

I do not see a future for the current UK boat builders without seriously significant engineering and process changes. Which I doubt they have the money to do.
I also doubt that the usual venture capitalist approach will help either. To make Princess profitable requires, I think, massive changes. Re-arranging the furniture, adding an extra layer of hand polished varnish or making the windows bigger/smaller won't make any difference.
 
Henry. This post comes across as pushing your agenda / preferences rather than being based in reality.

The boats used to sell to the normal guy doing well. Now they can't. You have the position that a 40 foot boat is ball parks £1m but France who are no exactly a great example of free market and low taxes produce them for half that as they are more efficient.

You no doubt saw the recent videos series on you tube re princess. It is not really a surprise they are losing money.

Whilst the designs have improved yes the price has risen disproportionally. They still have grp hulls , Volvo engines , trend glass etc etc.

In 2014 I bought a new squadron 65 for 1.2m plus tax. List was 1.7 but no one paid that. Now the 58 is close on 3m.

You say the top 1%. They can't get close. The top 1% earn more than £160k. The top .1% 650k.

They are all in a race to the "top" with bigger specs but then loose all their volume. They are all playing the same game so either they are all right ( the evidence is they are not ) or at least some of them need a new strategy.

I don't think most people care where it is built it is the product they want.
 
Trouble is, the "one percenters" (to use your definition) who don't care about prices can already pick other builders to whom Princess can't hold a candle in terms of quality and customization - let alone brand recognition.
Which is the only point where your automotive comparison makes sense, but very differently from the way you suggest, because Princess as a brand is akin to BMW at best, and remains nowhere near RR!
So, it seems to me that Brit builders are stuck between a rock and a hard place, because they can neither compete pricewise with Galeon et all (and never will, for very obvious reasons), nor quality-wise with the top dogs of this industry. And it would be extremely hard, expensive and time consuming for them to even just try to get up there, for equally obvious reasons, and with zero guarantee of success.
BTW, if there's one brand which could possibly be in a slightly better position at least in terms of brand recognition, imho it's S/skr, rather than Prin - even if personally, when it comes to their actual boats, I tend to prefer the latter.
Which is totally academic anyway, because I'm not going to sign on the dotted line for any other boat purchase during this life!
Who are “the Top dogs in the industry then?

I’ve been Cannes and Dusseldorf with the specific aim of not buying a Princess. Loads of people on here had told me the European builders were way better than British builders but I’m afraid that’s not what I found at my particular size and price point.
 
Henry, whilst you are well respected in this parish and a man of wealth having bought a large Princess . Now me being one of your great unwashed , you should be thankful of us because if we did buy your old boats in the second hand marked, you would not be buying new boats. Now over the years I know where I stand in the real world, I wondered where do you see yourself either in the real world or your world .
I know my place and it’s a long way down the pecking order. Re-read my post with tongue in cheek and a sense of humour.

We’ve seen Fairline fail a few times now and neither Princess nor Sunseeker are making money so my question is a valid and honest one.

The bit I don’t get is people feeling they have a right to buy a new boat made in Britain. The same doesn’t happen with Rolls Royce in fact quite the opposite, they put them on a pedestal as an aspirational product.
 
Sadly I think the answer to the above OP's question is simply....

.. No

Whether it's because the entry point is too high or various other reasons, the simple fact is that the difference between the very rich and the poor or even "average" in this country and perhaps globally has gotten significantly wider.

When I started work, I earned about £6000 a year as a Bank Clerk - the Regional manager of my bank was on about £30,000 (5x as much) - he boasted this much in early weeks of me being there in a "one day if you work hard you could do this" kind of way....

Now our top people earn millions a year when the average income is £30k ish.

The top 1% richest people in the world own 43% of its assets.

The bottom 50% of the worlds earners own 1% of the wealth between them.

The number of millionaires has grown undoubtably - but being a mere millionaire is not enough to buy these boats when you have to run them as well......

I would say to buy even an entry level SunPrinFair nowadays you need to be worth several million.

The simple fact is - "normal" wealth is rapidly not enough to buy and run even a pretty normal boat never mind one of these boats - and the people who CAN afford them is a rapidly dwindling NUMBER - more and more "serious" wealth is going to fewer and fewer people and those people have an awful lot of choice in the boating world.

I think the only way these manufacturers will survive is to keep the quality and the things people like but maybe manufacture to those standards in places like Ukraine / Poland and so forth.

Maybe I am wrong - but that's my feeling on it.
 
It depends who you are aiming at. In my view ( and it is just a view) the U.K. manufactures are sitting in no man's land. They have made themselves very expensive ( design choice / manufacturing inefficiency / production choices ( insource / outsource ) and no doubt more.

The doing well normal guy now can't buy one. He could in the past.

As Düsseldorf showed there are lots of people after your money. So many in fact it is mind boggling. There is also more variety than a planing flybridge boat - trawler yachts etc.

Top dog ? Depends on the boat you want My view the italian yards. San Lorenzo etc.

If you want a trawler yacht ( growing segment ) lots of choice.

Brand recognition globally ? Probably Sunseeker. James Bond / always welcoming to all comers on their boat show stands.

Are princess " top dog ". I don't think so. That is not to diss their product in any way - they are nice boats. I have had many Fairline ( with no real agenda ) top dog ? No. At the time value for money yes. Sunseeker. Great brand but I have always found their designs just not for me.

So one persons too dog may not be another's. But to be " too dog " you need to be selling boats and making money and they have all failed miserably. The French and Italians have not.
 
I think jrudge is fairly "on the money" with this

It's why Ford have failed in Europe. RR is very much up at the top end - very exclusive and so forth - Audi BMW and Merc offer the upmarket but attainable. VW, Seat and Skoda move down the ranks and so on...... Dacia are doing well - they offer about the cheapest new cars on the market but offer acceptable quality at a low (relatively) price.

But what does Ford represent..? It's not "premium" - but it's not really "affordable" either.....

It's in a no-mans land of not cheap, not premium and certainly not exclusive........ it's got no real identity or place in the market.

Whilst in the UK we think of Sunseeker Princess and Fairline as the "top end" of the market - the reality is that as mentioned above - it isn't.

It's also a small market in the UK so arguably what we think is irrelevant - what matters is how they are seen in their biggest market, and I don't know where that market is....... but if its the Med, the choice is huge over in Europe - possibly too many manufacturers chasing too small a number of customers?

I hope they succeed but it's a concern. The UK as a whole is in a mess for sure - and I am not sure the European Market is much better...
 
at my particular size
That's actually another flaw in your train of thought.
Nothing wrong with "your" size, mind. I think it's great in more ways than one - in fact, it's exactly the same I went for after considering also 80+ footers, which I could have bought for the same ballpark money (now talking of used boats, obviously).

BUT, that's not what could attract those 6k people who don't mind blowing half a million on a RR.
Which is the reason why none of the "top dog" I was thinking of even get out of bed (or better said, not anymore, though they did in the past, and with excellent results!) for building a 50 or 60 footer.
Just as an example, the smaller Riva flybridge is an 82 footer. And the smaller SL is an 86.
I know Princess build boats also in that size bracket, but aside from the fact that their larger boats are barely in the same ballpark of the smaller of these two builders, their standing is at a level Princess never touched, and as I said it would take years, a lot of effort and a helluva lot of money to just try to climb that particular hill, with total uncertainty about the results.
 
Henry. This post comes across as pushing your agenda / preferences rather than being based in reality.

The boats used to sell to the normal guy doing well. Now they can't. You have the position that a 40 foot boat is ball parks £1m but France who are no exactly a great example of free market and low taxes produce them for half that as they are more efficient.

You no doubt saw the recent videos series on you tube re princess. It is not really a surprise they are losing money.

Whilst the designs have improved yes the price has risen disproportionally. They still have grp hulls , Volvo engines , trend glass etc etc.

In 2014 I bought a new squadron 65 for 1.2m plus tax. List was 1.7 but no one paid that. Now the 58 is close on 3m.

You say the top 1%. They can't get close. The top 1% earn more than £160k. The top .1% 650k.

They are all in a race to the "top" with bigger specs but then loose all their volume. They are all playing the same game so either they are all right ( the evidence is they are not ) or at least some of them need a new strategy.

I don't think most people care where it is built it is the product they want.
I’ve looked at French boats and there simply wasn’t a financial saving certainly when looking at the product side by side.

This post has no agenda other than to ask the question. I’m really interested to
Sadly I think the answer to the above OP's question is simply....

.. No

Whether it's because the entry point is too high or various other reasons, the simple fact is that the difference between the very rich and the poor or even "average" in this country and perhaps globally has gotten significantly wider.

When I started work, I earned about £6000 a year as a Bank Clerk - the Regional manager of my bank was on about £30,000 (5x as much) - he boasted this much in early weeks of me being there in a "one day if you work hard you could do this" kind of way....

Now our top people earn millions a year when the average income is £30k ish.

The top 1% richest people in the world own 43% of its assets.

The bottom 50% of the worlds earners own 1% of the wealth between them.

The number of millionaires has grown undoubtably - but being a mere millionaire is not enough to buy these boats when you have to run them as well......

I would say to buy even an entry level SunPrinFair nowadays you need to be worth several million.

The simple fact is - "normal" wealth is rapidly not enough to buy and run even a pretty normal boat never mind one of these boats - and the people who CAN afford them is a rapidly dwindling NUMBER - more and more "serious" wealth is going to fewer and fewer people and those people have an awful lot of choice in the boating world.

I think the only way these manufacturers will survive is to keep the quality and the things people like but maybe manufacture to those standards in places like Ukraine / Poland and so forth.

Maybe I am wrong - but that's my feeling on it.
I’m not sure a boating forum is the place to moan about relative wealth in society. Motor boats have always been seen as a rich man’s hobby.
 
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