Does British boat building have a future?

[benjenbav]

If there has to be a car analogy, perhaps Aston Martin? Great design, great image; great Britishness; have always lost money. Currently bailed out by a Canadian billionaire who doesn’t care about that, because he’s got another agenda that AM fulfils.

Maybe that is the future for Princess if the current PE owners don’t see profits in the next couple of years?

Except, where is the billionaire appeal? The product isn’t like tech or pharma where folk will pile in to losses bcs one day there might be huge profits. Nor is it a platform from which to publicise one’s views.

No, in five years - if still in business - Princess will be making pretty much the same thing as today. Nice boats, big boats; maybe even nicer and even bigger. But basically the same thing: boats.

 

[benjenbav]

That's actually another flaw in your train of thought.
Nothing wrong with "your" size, mind. I think it's great in more ways than one - in fact, it's exactly the same I went for after considering also 80+ footers, which I could have bought for the same ballpark money (now talking of used boats, obviously).

BUT, that's not what could attract those 6k people who don't mind blowing half a million on a RR.
Which is the reason why none of the "top dog" I was thinking of even get out of bed (or better said, not anymore, though they did in the past, and with excellent results!) for building a 50 or 60 footer.
Just as an example, the smaller Riva flybridge is an 82 footer. And the smaller SL is an 86.
I know Princess build boats also in that size bracket, but aside from the fact that their larger boats are barely in the same ballpark of the smaller of these two builders, their standing is at a level Princess never touched, and as I said it would take years, a lot of effort and a helluva lot of money to just try to climb that particular hill, with total uncertainty about the results.

Just try this, perhaps, with the prem league footballers, the rock stars, the tech bros.

Which is better: Riva or Princess?

Riva or Sunseeker?

A: Riva - all day long and twice on Sundays.

Why? Maybe the other ones are better by every available metric but they’re still worse bcs beautiful people buy Riva.

 

[henryf]

I was upset to see his comment calling less fortunate people "The Great Unwashed" totally unnecessary.
I suppose to be expected from a "used car salesman"!

Forgive my jovial turn of phrase. I’ve long since given up caring how people refer to me. I’ll be judged by my actions and how I treat people when I meet them

 

[henryf]

Henry. This post comes across as pushing your agenda / preferences rather than being based in reality.

The boats used to sell to the normal guy doing well. Now they can't. You have the position that a 40 foot boat is ball parks £1m but France who are no exactly a great example of free market and low taxes produce them for half that as they are more efficient.

You no doubt saw the recent videos series on you tube re princess. It is not really a surprise they are losing money.

Whilst the designs have improved yes the price has risen disproportionally. They still have grp hulls , Volvo engines , trend glass etc etc.

In 2014 I bought a new squadron 65 for 1.2m plus tax. List was 1.7 but no one paid that. Now the 58 is close on 3m.

You say the top 1%. They can't get close. The top 1% earn more than £160k. The top .1% 650k.

They are all in a race to the "top" with bigger specs but then loose all their volume. They are all playing the same game so either they are all right ( the evidence is they are not ) or at least some of them need a new strategy.

I don't think most people care where it is built it is the product they want.

I’ve looked at French boats and there simply wasn’t a financial saving certainly when looking at the product side by side.

This post has no agenda other than to ask the question. I’m really interested to

 

[kashurst]

I don't think the UK boat builders have a long term strategy. They, as others have posted are neither one thing or the other from a competition perspective.
They will all fail without serious change. Being a billionaire's toy only buys time, unless said billionaire makes serious change.

 

[47GC]

I don't think the UK boat builders have a long term strategy. They, as others have posted are neither one thing or the other from a competition perspective.
They will all fail without serious change. Being a billionaire's toy only buys time, unless said billionaire makes serious change.

Agreed, or at least the current strategy is failing.

 

[stelican]

Forgive my jovial turn of phrase. I’ve long since given up caring how people refer to me. I’ll be judged by my actions and how I treat people when I meet them

Something I will not have to care about

 

[henryf]

I think jrudge is fairly "on the money" with this

It's why Ford have failed in Europe. RR is very much up at the top end - very exclusive and so forth - Audi BMW and Merc offer the upmarket but attainable. VW, Seat and Skoda move down the ranks and so on...... Dacia are doing well - they offer about the cheapest new cars on the market but offer acceptable quality at a low (relatively) price.

But what does Ford represent..? It's not "premium" - but it's not really "affordable" either.....

It's in a no-mans land of not cheap, not premium and certainly not exclusive........ it's got no real identity or place in the market.

Whilst in the UK we think of Sunseeker Princess and Fairline as the "top end" of the market - the reality is that as mentioned above - it isn't.

It's also a small market in the UK so arguably what we think is irrelevant - what matters is how they are seen in their biggest market, and I don't know where that market is....... but if its the Med, the choice is huge over in Europe - possibly too many manufacturers chasing too small a number of customers?

I hope they succeed but it's a concern. The UK as a whole is in a mess for sure - and I am not sure the European Market is much better...

Princess isn’t the Ford of the boat world. Within its size range it’s up there with the best of them. People have mentioned someone like Sanlorenzo but you need to walk in with £10m. Too rich for me I’m afraid and many other new boat buyers.

With £2-5m what am I missing? Give me 3 builders who blow Princess and Sunseeker into the weeds. I looked and couldn’t find them.

 

[henryf]

Agreed, or at least the current strategy is failing.

Princess and Sunseeker aren’t aimed at billionaires.

 

[henryf]

That's actually another flaw in your train of thought.
Nothing wrong with "your" size, mind. I think it's great in more ways than one - in fact, it's exactly the same I went for after considering also 80+ footers, which I could have bought for the same ballpark money (now talking of used boats, obviously).

BUT, that's not what could attract those 6k people who don't mind blowing half a million on a RR.
Which is the reason why none of the "top dog" I was thinking of even get out of bed (or better said, not anymore, though they did in the past, and with excellent results!) for building a 50 or 60 footer.
Just as an example, the smaller Riva flybridge is an 82 footer. And the smaller SL is an 86.
I know Princess build boats also in that size bracket, but aside from the fact that their larger boats are barely in the same ballpark of the smaller of these two builders, their standing is at a level Princess never touched, and as I said it would take years, a lot of effort and a helluva lot of money to just try to climb that particular hill, with total uncertainty about the results.

So Princess are targeting the less wealthy millionaires and when you do get into the 80-90 foot range they are surprisingly affordable in relative terms. A result of working on smaller sized boats.

 

[henryf]

Princess aren’t struggling to sell their boats. I can’t speak for Sunseeker. So finding their place in the market isn’t in question. The issue is making a profit whilst building and selling them.

I’m really interested to see what a new owner who specifically turns round manufacturing businesses can do.

 

[47GC]

Princess and Sunseeker aren’t aimed at billionaires.

I was meaning the strategy for making a profit was failing.

 

[Grubble]

It doesnt help when employer's national insurance contributions are raised by the government in the case with major builders like Fairline, Princess etc etc there is more than just a small squad of men building the boats.
Just my Opinion and not getting political just factual.

Clearly it doesn't help an unprofitable business if their costs go up, but as discussed in one of the many other threads on the topic, French, German and Italian boat builders manage to be profitable despite high taxes, high labour and energy costs, so why are British boat builders uniquely unable to cope in that environment?

 

[kashurst]

Clearly it doesn't help an unprofitable business if their costs go up, but as discussed in one of the many other threads on the topic, French, German and Italian boat builders manage to be profitable despite high taxes, high labour and energy costs, so why are British boat builders uniquely unable to cope in that environment?

Too many people not adding enough value. I watched the Princess Factory Aquaholic video and was horrified by the levels of wasted time in the build process and the apparent lack of automation and the build process itself. They seem to be designing a pretty boat - a good start, and they sell, better!. Then building and assembling it in the same way they did in the 1980s, then adding all that up and hoping the sales price covers what they believed it actually cost. A superficial look a Princess's financials indicate something is very very wrong. £300 million turnover and an EBITDA loss of £43million. Princess has an order book allegedly of £700million stretching out to 2026 and beyond. All the directors, except possibly the sales director should be sacked.

It would be better to look at what customers really need and separate out the customer "wants" more carefully. Decide what segment they are in, who are they really selling to, decide what the sales price needs to be plus options etc, then work out the gross margin and net margin they want.
You give that to the designers and engineers. Get that right and get really good at it and you will make a product your intended customers love and you make money. The Europeans can do it, why can't the UK builders?

 

[benjenbav]

Seems to me that this thread is conflating two issues.

First, do Princess make nice 50-60 foot boats. Pretty sure the answer to that is ‘yes’.

Second, as a company, the principal objective for Princess must be to make a profit. This they don’t do; nor have they for years. The last owners sold the company to the current ones at a massive loss (judged against their investment in the company).

Presumably, the new owners think that they can turn things around, make a profit and sell in a few years for more than they paid.

Maybe they’re right. But, to do that there are going to have to be big changes in how they make the product. Because if they keep on doing the same thing, they’re going to get the same outcome; that is to say, poor financials.

 

[Blueboatman]

As an ex owner of one of their venerable-and beautiful to sail- 36s, I thought this was interesting.
Rustler 41, a beautifully elegant motor yacht

 

[DAW]

Princess isn’t the Ford of the boat world. Within its size range it’s up there with the best of them. People have mentioned someone like Sanlorenzo but you need to walk in with £10m. Too rich for me I’m afraid and many other new boat buyers.

With £2-5m what am I missing? Give me 3 builders who blow Princess and Sunseeker into the weeds. I looked and couldn’t find them.

With £2-5m to spend you are looking in a very crowded market with some equally strong offerings from competing brands in the same category ... Alongside Princess you have Sunseeker, Ferretti, Riva, Itama, Azimut, Cranchi, Pearl, Prestige, Absolute, Pershing, and several others. If you want San Lorenzo quality and innovative use of space for less than £10m, then look at a Bluegame. If you're looking at the lower end of the price range, then you can add larger boats from Pardo and many other makers of open boats and sports cruisers. My point is not to rundown Princess or the quality of its boats, but in this price range there are lots of comparable alternatives and what is "best" depends on what you are looking for, what's important to you ... and in some cases where you are from

One of the challenges faced by all these manufacturers is that they have relentlessly pushed their products upmarket and into a price range which attracts a more limited number and a different type of buyer. If you look at the evolution of the tax paid price of a typical 55-60ft sports cruiser/flybridge it went from perhaps £0.5-0.7m in the early noughties, to £1m in 2010, £2m in 2020, and somewhere close to £3m today. Income and wealth has not increased in the same way, so you have a growing number of producers chasing a decreasing number of buyers, competing with each other on the basis of delivering ever increasing quality, more complex interior design, brand appeal and competitive pricing. Twenty five years ago, the typical purchaser might have been a knowlegable owner-operator boating enthusiast who had achieved some success in his or her business life and wanted to spend time on the water. Today, the target customer is just as likely to be multi-millionaire looking for a lifestyle purchase, often with little or no boating experience and dependent on a captain or maintenance company to look after the boat.

I don't really buy into the argument that the UK is somehow burdened by a cost disadvantage or the aftermath of Brexit. The competitors to Princess, Sunseeker and Fairline are predominantly in Italy and France, not the Far East. These countries are not renowned for their low cost manufacturing, flexible working practices, absence of bureaucracy or inherent efficiency. I know from personal experience. that the cost of shipment from the UK to the Med on a new boat is irrelevant ... less than 0.5% of the price ... and that the administrative hurdles are easily overcome. They're all buying the same components from Volvo Penta, MAN, etc. Currency can be an issue, but it is easily managed.

If you want to understand why the Italian and French builders of directly competing products make good money and those in the UK don't, you need look internally at their approach, working practices, investment in technology and the adoption of modern production methodologies. Unfortunately, while we posses the skills to make products as good as anyone in the world, too often the UK has a history of following rather than leading in these areas.

 

[oldgit]

A parochial view.
In Ye olden days boats were bought by those who actually enjoyed being out on the water and a boat however small or grand required the spending more of time than money. For those affluent enough, a bespoke Twin Screw Motor Yacht would be custom built to order.
Sometime in the 1970s with the growing prosperity of the nation, Fairline and Princess spotted a gap in a very staid and traditional home market that just might attract the growing numbers of folks looking for something a little more modern and up to date.
These were the marques by which all other UK builders were judged both pricewise and as an aspirational purchase.
The folks able to afford them bought with gusto, judging by the numbers still around.
Other boats were available but the changing market led the their demise, Broom went sailing up their own creek.
Nothing much really changes for decades until the folks interested or able to purchase a new Prinline fades, demanding a fast review of how to even stay in the game.
UK now up against the world , especially with virtually all these boats ending up on lorry heading for the sun.
Doubt that many buyers interested in this section of the market , will be rummaging in cupboards or bilges looking for strands of chopped mat waiting to shred there fingers, before signing any cheque.

 

[henryf]

With £2-5m to spend you are looking in a very crowded market with some equally strong offerings from competing brands in the same category ... Alongside Princess you have Sunseeker, Ferretti, Riva, Itama, Azimut, Cranchi, Pearl, Prestige, Absolute, Pershing, and several others. If you want San Lorenzo quality and innovative use of space for less than £10m, then look at a Bluegame. If you're looking at the lower end of the price range, then you can add larger boats from Pardo and many other makers of open boats and sports cruisers. My point is not to rundown Princess or the quality of its boats, but in this price range there are lots of comparable alternatives and what is "best" depends on what you are looking for, what's important to you ... and in some cases where you are from

One of the challenges faced by all these manufacturers is that they have relentlessly pushed their products upmarket and into a price range which attracts a more limited number and a different type of buyer. If you look at the evolution of the tax paid price of a typical 55-60ft sports cruiser/flybridge it went from perhaps £0.5-0.7m in the early noughties, to £1m in 2010, £2m in 2020, and somewhere close to £3m today. Income and wealth has not increased in the same way, so you have a growing number of producers chasing a decreasing number of buyers, competing with each other on the basis of delivering ever increasing quality, more complex interior design, brand appeal and competitive pricing. Twenty five years ago, the typical purchaser might have been a knowlegable owner-operator boating enthusiast who had achieved some success in his or her business life and wanted to spend time on the water. Today, the target customer is just as likely to be multi-millionaire looking for a lifestyle purchase, often with little or no boating experience and dependent on a captain or maintenance company to look after the boat.

I don't really buy into the argument that the UK is somehow burdened by a cost disadvantage or the aftermath of Brexit. The competitors to Princess, Sunseeker and Fairline are predominantly in Italy and France, not the Far East. These countries are not renowned for their low cost manufacturing, flexible working practices, absence of bureaucracy or inherent efficiency. I know from personal experience. that the cost of shipment from the UK to the Med on a new boat is irrelevant ... less than 0.5% of the price ... and that the administrative hurdles are easily overcome. They're all buying the same components from Volvo Penta, MAN, etc. Currency can be an issue, but it is easily managed.

If you want to understand why the Italian and French builders of directly competing products make good money and those in the UK don't, you need look internally at their approach, working practices, investment in technology and the adoption of modern production methodologies. Unfortunately, while we posses the skills to make products as good as anyone in the world, too often the UK has a history of following rather than leading in these areas.

You make some very valid points. In terms of the competition I’ve been to Europe, predominately Cannes, with the specific aim of buying something other than Princess. I ended up back in Plymouth. They had the best product for me. In many cases I was astounded at how bad the competition was, not just in terms of hidden engineering spaces but functional living space.

The one area Europe won was massive open back decks but I don’t want that. In the UK it’s not protected enough and in Thailand I’d dry to a crisp in the blazing sunshine.

So I’m happy that British builders can compete in the open market. Princess sell all their boats. Once again I use them only because I know the company and would be the first to know of unsold stock. I don’t know Sunseeker as well.

So to me the issue isn’t selling them, it’s doing it for profit and I totally agree that the UK is as good as anywhere in developed Europe to build / employ people.

 

[henryf]

A parochial view.
In Ye olden days boats were bought by those who actually enjoyed being out on the water and a boat however small or grand required the spending more of time than money. For those affluent enough, a bespoke Twin Screw Motor Yacht would be custom built to order.
Sometime in the 1970s with the growing prosperity of the nation, Fairline and Princess spotted a gap in a very staid and traditional home market that just might attract the growing numbers of folks looking for something a little more modern and up to date.
These were the marques by which all other UK builders were judged both pricewise and as an aspirational purchase.
The folks able to afford them bought with gusto, judging by the numbers still around.
Other boats were available but the changing market led the their demise, Broom went sailing up their own creek.
Nothing much really changes for decades until the folks interested or able to purchase a new Prinline fades, demanding a fast review of how to even stay in the game.
UK now up against the world , especially with virtually all these boats ending up on lorry heading for the sun.
Doubt that many buyers interested in this section of the market , will be rummaging in cupboards or bilges looking for strands of chopped mat waiting to shred there fingers, before signing any cheque.

As mentioned previously I was astounded at how badly the competition dealt with living space and volume compared to our native builders when I went to Cannes. My comments on engineering spaces was a personal gripe because I still go in the engine room and use the boat in anger as an owner operator but even at Düsseldorf this year I could cite examples of poor design and use of space which even a non technical owner will notice.

There will always be individuals doing well enough in their field to afford a boat and those fields are constantly moving as I’m discovering on a personal level currently. Opportunity coming from the most bizarre of directions which you’d never think of 20 years ago.