Does a Norfolk Gypsy fit our needs ?

[EnglishIrishman]

We're in our early fifties and after many years of pondering, the wife and I are ready to give sailing a go. Hairy-chested offshore exploits won't be our thing, we'd like to explore sheltered coastline ( since we're in N Ireland that'll mean Strangford Lough, Carlingford Lough) and also preserve the ability to explore inshore waterways (Lough Erne, Lough Neagh and the Shannon system). Ideally, we'd also like to have the possibility (in the future as our abilities and confidence grow) to cross over the north channel and explore the Western isles, or even perhaps even across St.Georges channel to explore S Wales etc. (assuming favourable conditions of course).
We want to be able to dry out on mud or sand (primarily to enjoy the wildlife) and for reasons of cost as well as ease of winter maintenance we definitely want to stick with a trailer sailer. The budget will stretch to a decent secondhand small boat, but not to the never ending wallet sapping demands of a permanent morning or berth ( although I'd consider keeping her moored or berthed for a couple of months in the summer).
Our tow vehicle is and shall remain our trusty VW T5 campervan, but it's high roof means that the boat's mast can't overhang the van.
All of these criteria lead us ( I think ? ) towards a small gaffer, principally a Shrimper 19 or a Norfolk Gypsy. Information on the Gypsy, other than the manufacturer's sales blurb, is a little hard to come by, but what I can find seems to suggest that the Gypsy is :
i) Slightly better built than the Shrimper ( it's certainly about 300kg heavier)
ii) Slightly roomier than the Shrimper (relatively speaking.... although I'd hope that seasoned campervanners would be able to deal with either)
iii) A slightly better (faster & more stable) sail than the Shrimper

Your comments please on whether any of this is correct or indeed on any giant holes in my logic....

 

[ProDave]

Don't under estimate the time effort and hassle of rigging and launching a trailer sailor. Tried it and rejected the idea as something you want to do at the start and end of a season, preferably with a crane, not too expensive if you use a club crane in/out day.

By all means take it home on the trailer for winter to avoid storage fees and for easy maintenance.

What is the towing limit of the T5?

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

Agree with the previous post - trailer sailing a boat of this size. weight and complexity is demanding. They really are more suitable for keeping afloat and maybe trailering to other places for holidays etc. Just launching for a day or even a weekend will soon lose its attraction - finding a slip, dealing with tides, rigging and getting 1.5 tones of boat safely on and off a trailer is not for the faint hearted.

There are a lot of Shrimpers in our club in Poole and they are all kept afloat and most taken home by trailer for the winter. However most are also launched using the club hoist rather than off the trailer even though we have a good sheltered concrete slip. On the other hand some of the more adventurous members trail their boats long distances for their holidays. Last year 3 took their boats to Scotland to join a Shrimper rally there followed by a cruise independently.

The Shrimper is popular because of its versatility - there is a very active racing scene in Poole and other locations and easy to buy into because there is always a good supply on the secondhand market. As you have found the Gypsy is built in small numbers because of its high price and limited appeal. Does not mean it is a bad boat, just does not click with buyers in the same way as a Shrimper or the other popular boat in the same sector the Cape Cutter 19

Not sure sailing across to Scotland is realistic. Not because the boat is not capable, but simply choosing the right weather to go both ways safely. However trailering across for a holiday using a crane at one of the Scottish yards to launch is attractive.

Lots of things to think about.

 

[Stemar]

I'm with ProDave and Tranona. A proper little cruiser is hard work to rig and de-rig for a weekend's sailing, and I reckon towing, rigging, packing away and towing home will pretty much eliminate pleasant Sunday afternoon potters.

A mooring doesn't have to be expensive. A local club my have something affordable. I pay a couple of hundred a year, plus the cost of maintaining it, another couple of hundred every couple of years, and that's in the Solent. Obviously, at that price there's a loooong waiting list, but but it's certainly worth asking around.

 

[fredrussell]

If you can find one a Demon Yachts Kite would be ideal. A proper trailer sailer, carbon gaff rig a doddle to raise and lower, even single handed, light to tow and sails like a witch. Demon Yachts built about 10 before getting back to metre boats and super light ‘exotica’. Similar ‘traditional’ style to Norfolk Gypsy, but more spartan inside. Very much a trailer sailer though, with regard to what others have said above, but from a yard that specialises in performance sailing (and other) boats.

 

[MisterBaxter]

How about a Hunter Liberty / Medina? Very seaworthy and as easy to trail as anything at that size.

 

[EnglishIrishman]

Yes, lots to think about..... I fully take on board the fact that launching & rigging aren't really viable for a day sail and I'd be happy enough to moor or berth her for a couple of months in the summer at least, perhaps in a different area each year.
The T5 has a 1900kg towing capacity, which should cover either boat + trailer, but if I'm unhappy about it I can hook it on behind the tractor - an hour and a half on the tractor would take us over to warrenpoint for launching, which would be fine if it's only at start and end of season.
I think I'm really trying to drill down into the differences between the boats mentioned and any others that you have suggested - an attraction of the gypsy is that the mast remains engaged in the tabernacle for transport, which eases the shenanigans upon launch and recovery. I also wonder whether some on the other boats mentioned will be able to drop their masts as easily, on order to shoot bridges on inland waterways?
If anyone has first hand experience of both shrimper and gypsy, I'd like to hear from them....

 

[Crowblack]

If you settle on a Gypsy.

Might be a bit far for you but this one has been been extremely well kept - owner's a meticulous no compromise sort of chap.

Norfolk Gypsy for sale UK, Norfolk boats for sale, Norfolk used boat sales, Norfolk Sailing Yachts For Sale 1990 Norfolk Gypsy - Apollo Duck

 

[EnglishIrishman]

Yes, I've seen that one advertised - it looks very tidy and well looked after as you suggest and the added pushpit looks very reassuring to newbies like us.
The only thing I wonder about is whether boat build no.2 would have had all the teething problems ironed out (as later examples inevitably will have), but maybe I'm being unduly pessimistic?
As far as distance goes, they're all far away for me, so whether it's Norfolk or the Solent or Plymouth or wherever is pretty much academic.

 

[Wansworth]

Get a proper boat……a Galway Hooker

 

[KompetentKrew]

I kinda feel that you want two different things from a boat.

The loughs you mention are only a few miles in length and I would think a dinghy of about this size would be appropriate. (Not necessarily these models, and kits may be unsuitable for the inexperienced.) Crossing to the Western Isles, on the other hand, is proper offshore sailing, and I'd have thought a trailer sailer a bit light - a Centaur would be fine because, although it's small, it's a proper keelboat.

I would have thought moorings would be quite affordable in this part of the world, so if you can't afford to keep a boat on a moorings I would question if you can afford a boat. Boats are expensive! You know that going in, but nevertheless you are appalled by the frequency with which they turn out to be more expensive than expected.

The Norfolk Gypsy looks like a modern GRP boat but made to appeal to those who enjoy its traditional styling. I'd guess that it's built in low numbers and that you'll pay a premium for a boat like that, especially a trailer-sailer. I think this premium is a well-known thing with the Shrimper line of boats?

Also, it seems like an idyllic idea to tow your boat behind your VW campervan, but they're two different things and with all the planning and necessities I think you might find it all a bit of a handful. If you've got a boat you can sleep in then you don't need the campervan, so a dinghy would maybe make more sense for the moment.

From Google Maps:

• Newtownards Sailing Club - www.newtownardssailingclub.co.uk
• Quoile Yacht Club - www.quoileyachtclub.com
• Ringhaddy Cruising Club - www.ringhaddy.cc
• East Down Yacht Club - www.edyc.co.uk

Quoile and East Down have a bar, probably Newtownards too. I think you should go and speak to some of these folks. They look like the kinds of clubs that have space on the hard for overwintering and everyone gets together 2 weekends a year, to launch in spring and haul out in autumn.

 

[EnglishIrishman]

I've often looked across the water from Gibb's island towards the Quoile club and thought that they looked like a pretty straightforward lot. I'd considered getting in touch with them, but was discouraged a couple of months ago by a notice on their website to the effect that they can no longer offer moorings to new members, but since you've mentioned them I've checked again and the notice has gone, so the problem was perhaps a temporary one. Nonetheless, it would be wise to take advise from them, since they're the most nearest strangford club to me.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, lots to think about..... I fully take on board the fact that launching & rigging aren't really viable for a day sail and I'd be happy enough to moor or berth her for a couple of months in the summer at least, perhaps in a different area each year.
The T5 has a 1900kg towing capacity, which should cover either boat + trailer, but if I'm unhappy about it I can hook it on behind the tractor - an hour and a half on the tractor would take us over to warrenpoint for launching, which would be fine if it's only at start and end of season.
I think I'm really trying to drill down into the differences between the boats mentioned and any others that you have suggested - an attraction of the gypsy is that the mast remains engaged in the tabernacle for transport, which eases the shenanigans upon launch and recovery. I also wonder whether some on the other boats mentioned will be able to drop their masts as easily, on order to shoot bridges on inland waterways?
If anyone has first hand experience of both shrimper and gypsy, I'd like to hear from them....

The Gypsy is a pocket cruiser that is small enough to be moved on a trailer, but never really intended for flexible easy trailer sailing. These are the experts in proper trailer sailers swallowyachts.com/range/bay-cruiser-23/ Water ballast and use of modern material like carbon fibre mean trailing weight of even the 23 almost half that of the Gypsy. Not only easier to trailer but far easier to launch, You don't say what your budget is but this level of sophistication costs.

I expect the Gypsy and trailer will exceed your limit for the T5, particularly if you have extra gear on board, but if you can tow that weight then consider a Shrimper 21 rather than a 19. If you are not wedded to the traditional style then look at this Redfox 200 trailer sailer. Information, specification, history

Not sure what inland waterways you are thinking about, but really the only ones that are suitable for sail cruising are the Broads where dropping masts are common, but usually specifically designed for this. Most other navigable waterways are really motorboat territory. Different if you go to Holland of course.

 

[Supertramp]

Norfolk Gypsy is a great boat and gaff rig makes much sense for a trailer sailer. As does shoal draft. The Norfolk Gypsy is a tough small boat - not sailed one but talked to owners. They take wind and weather better than big dinghy types.

Driving with, launching and rigging a trailer sailer is quite stressful and physical. I did it a decade or so ago. As Tranona says, surprised if it would meet your towing limit.

Even more decades ago I would have crossed the Irish Sea in one. But the (dis)comfort and experience would deter me now. The Irish Sea currents can make it very lively in moderate winds when a small and light boat could struggle to make to windward.

Small is good where trailer sailers are concerned, but don't expect offshore performance.

 

[Wansworth]

PBOran various articles about cruising and trailering on a twin daggerboard small yacht which the owners trailed to European destinations with a fairly normal car…..Red Fox

 

[Zagato]

Tranona has really hit the nail on the head in all areas BUT just to add, the Gypsy has lead ballast so it will not eventually corrode and expand as it may/does on a Shrimper making the centre plate jam as they put in steel punchings (A Cape Cutter is a better bet over a Shrimper for its superior sailing prowess alone). Neil Thompson boats sell a simple system based on an A frame so that you can easily lower and raise the mast on a Gypsy easily single handed. I have trailer sailed various Drascombes, it's easy, only take 20 mins to rig and launch but only with the models I don,t have to dip the wheels in. Hub flushing kits really are not that effective. Once dipped you really have to service them annually or at least before really long journeys for piece of mind! I also only use swinging cradle trailers which bear hug the bow and automatically line the boat up precisely onto the rollers despite side winds etc. Trying to position a Shrimper or Gypsy in side currents or winds is no easy task sometimes, even with many hands. The Gypsy does not have a self draining cockpit, the designer preferring the ergonomics of having a deep comfortable cockpit. Never heard it was a problem but I wouldn,t fancy using a Gypsy for some of the passages you mention, I would prefer coastal use only.

If moorings are cheap then get a more capable boat for offshore passages, maybe bilge keel to dry out! You could always also get a Drascombe Lugger or similar for easy trailer sailing and dive into your camper for the night if your wife doesn,t fancy a boat tent! There is a big Drascombe Association and Dinghy Cruising Association rally scene for events offshore, inshore, home and abroad.

I don,t have the link now but there is a company who have clearly got the rights to build a very basic, cheap, light, "Gypsy" called something else cannot remember sorry. It is about 30K for a new one not 80K minimum which is what the Norfolk Gypsy currently is. As said you really do pay a massive premium for a Gypsy.. don't scratch it! 25k plus for a later model, with nice coloured coachroof and deck not the yellow you have on some earlier models. Have a look at Neil Thompson brokerage for nice examples... can be bought cheaper of course as he manufactures them! I am looking for a nice, reasonably priced one but not to trailer sail.

I suspect you have been watching "Toby Goes Saiilng" on You Tube who has progressed from a dinghy, to a Drascombe Lugger to a Norfolk Gypsy. He keeps his in a marina

 

[boomerangben]

If you can find one a Demon Yachts Kite would be ideal. A proper trailer sailer, carbon gaff rig a doddle to raise and lower, even single handed, light to tow and sails like a witch. Demon Yachts built about 10 before getting back to metre boats and super light ‘exotica’. Similar ‘traditional’ style to Norfolk Gypsy, but more spartan inside. Very much a trailer sailer though, with regard to what others have said above, but from a yard that specialises in performance sailing (and other) boats.

I think the Kite and the Gypsy are from the drawing board of the same naval architect, hence their similarities

 

[boomerangben]

As Tranona says, Swallow Yachts make some very trailerable yachts that sail well and trail well and are easy to launch and recover. Water ballast makes some much sense for a trailer sailer

One thing that nearly caught me out is to keep a eye not just of maximum trailer weight for your vehicle but also the maximum gross train weight