Do you still beat to windward ?

[Laminar Flow]

Twin furling headsails solves that problem. Large genoa on the outer furler and working headsail on the inner furler. Tacking up a river under working headsail under reduced canvas works fine.
We love our running backstays. When beating the runners stiffen the mast noticeably. We only really need them in bumpy seas when there is a tendency for the mast to pump. Horses for courses.
Crossing the pond West to East last year we did about 48hrs to windward in +2m seas and winds 20-30kts. Tacked a couple of times under reefed main and working jib. Both runners can stay on as they dont catch the mainsail with two reefs in. It was an uncomfortable couple of days but we tacked through 90deg. Sometimes you just have to do it. Engine wasn't an option

Agree, not all passages are downhill sleigh rides. From the Hawaiian Islands to the North American mainland is a (nominally) 3500 mile trek of which the first 1500 hundred are to weather to get across the top of the Pacific high. It can be hard on both crew and ship even if it doesn't involve much tacking.

 

[dunedin]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It isn't being close-hauled - it's tacking. I will mostly be sailing single-handed for a while, and so tacking is something that is hard work and tiring. But being close-hauled is fine - as many have pointed out, the boat often travels faster when close-hauled than sailing downwind. I have no objection whatsoever to sailing close to the wind - what I don't want to be doing is constantly tacking!

Tacking difficulty depends quite a bit on boat setup and technique. Due to Covid did most of 2,000 coastal waters singlehanded - but tacking wasn’t something I worried about. Indeed as an ex Enterprise racer, tend to tack for the windshifts and tack early for any layline, happy to put two extra tacks if necessary.
With a good autopilot, I swap the traveller across pre-tack to ensure the main is ready for the new tack, and then use the pilot to hold about 20-30 degrees off the wind on the new tack so can easily get the jib in, then just a couple of turns with the winch before bearing off to fill the sail. Saves a lot of effort.
It is fun when we can overtake boats that are motoring whilst sailing upwind

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Tacking difficulty depends quite a bit on boat setup and technique. Due to Covid did most of 2,000 coastal waters singlehanded - but tacking wasn’t something I worried about. Indeed as an ex Enterprise racer, tend to tack for the windshifts and tack early for any layline, happy to put two extra tacks if necessary.
With a good autopilot, I swap the traveller across pre-tack to ensure the main is ready for the new tack, and then use the pilot to hold about 20-30 degrees off the wind on the new tack so can easily get the jib in, then just a couple of turns with the winch before bearing off to fill the sail. Saves a lot of effort.
It is fun when we can overtake boats that are motoring whilst sailing upwind

It also depends on the person's strength, and whether it is necessary to tack quickly or not. The presumption, if short tacking, is that one must tack quickly - otherwise, why short tack? I find it physically taxing to tack quickly; advancing age has disadvantages (I'll think of some advantages real soon now!). When teenagers, crewing for my father, we delighted in fast sail handling; I recall one day when we tacked my Dad's Halcyon 27 round a friend's Silhouette! But doing that required close teamwork between the three of us, and youthful muscles! And, of course, it was a somewhat smaller yacht than my Moody 31. Even with two-speed winches and good timing, it is still physically demanding to haul the genoa in, and as noted, I'm not getting any younger.

 

[newtothis]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It isn't being close-hauled - it's tacking. I will mostly be sailing single-handed for a while, and so tacking is something that is hard work and tiring. But being close-hauled is fine - as many have pointed out, the boat often travels faster when close-hauled than sailing downwind. I have no objection whatsoever to sailing close to the wind - what I don't want to be doing is constantly tacking!

Junk rig owners smile knowingly...

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Junk rig owners smile knowingly...

Unfortunately, I think it would be difficult to set up a junk rig on a Moody 31. Don't you need a keel stepped mast for a junk rig?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Junk rig owners smile knowingly...

.... and wonder what this "going to windward" business is.

 

[Gary Fox]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It isn't being close-hauled - it's tacking. I will mostly be sailing single-handed for a while, and so tacking is something that is hard work and tiring. But being close-hauled is fine - as many have pointed out, the boat often travels faster when close-hauled than sailing downwind. I have no objection whatsoever to sailing close to the wind - what I don't want to be doing is constantly tacking!

Totally, unless you have some crew who are still enjoying the novelty of short-tacking

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Our boat goes poorly to windward, maybe 45 to 50 degrees to the wind, plus maybe 10 degrees leeway. We did it in F6 with dead engine and it was fine but slow but actually almost useless in light airs - she sometimes wont even tack in F3 though not as bad as our last but one boat

We have limitted time. My job(s) and the Navigators allotment and conservatory call. And sailing down west we are blessed with a SW to get us home but only rarely an easterly to get us down along to Scillies or West Cornwall cruising grounds. The iron topsail then comes into its own.

We sail for fun, not to prove we could do something tedious. Now going downwind in light airs with watersails, staysails and every bit of cloth including the teatowel set, that is fun.

 

[dunedin]

It also depends on the person's strength, and whether it is necessary to tack quickly or not. The presumption, if short tacking, is that one must tack quickly - otherwise, why short tack?

Not sure I agree with that. I grew up roll tacking Enterprises every 5 boat lengths to keep inshore and avoid 5 knot spring tides.

But when short tacking a boat weighing a few tons, a fast start / slow finish tack can work much better and save huge amount of effort - ie holding the bow high of the course, letting the jib blow into place then tighten, before dropping down onto course. As well as saving effort, the momentum keeps you go8ng above the course, so gain over a fast tack and then struggle to sheet in. Putting the traveller over first, so the boom is close to centre after the tack to give drive and keep the bows up, is critical.
Worth trying if not done so.

 

[Stemar]

One can save a lot of the hard work tacking if the helm can hold the boat just off the wind on the new tack for long enough for the crew to sheet in the genny. Even hard on the wind, you'll only need a couple of turns on the winch. OTOH, If you don't like your crew, go straight onto the new tack and berate them for not getting it sheeted in quickly enough.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Surprised no one has c

One can save a lot of the hard work tacking if the helm can hold the boat just off the wind on the new tack for long enough for the crew to sheet in the genny. Even hard on the wind, you'll only need a couple of turns on the winch. OTOH, If you don't like your crew, go straight onto the new tack and berate them for not getting it sheeted in quickly enough.

Surprised no one has replied have self jib tacking Hancie or Francis 26. Would be nice to hear views.

 

[Tanqueray]

Not sure I agree with that. I grew up roll tacking Enterprises every 5 boat lengths to keep inshore and avoid 5 knot spring tides.

But when short tacking a boat weighing a few tons, a fast start / slow finish tack can work much better and save huge amount of effort - ie holding the bow high of the course, letting the jib blow into place then tighten, before dropping down onto course. As well as saving effort, the momentum keeps you go8ng above the course, so gain over a fast tack and then struggle to sheet in. Putting the traveller over first, so the boom is close to centre after the tack to give drive and keep the bows up, is critical.
Worth trying if not done so.

Exactly

 

[AntarcticPilot]

One can save a lot of the hard work tacking if the helm can hold the boat just off the wind on the new tack for long enough for the crew to sheet in the genny. Even hard on the wind, you'll only need a couple of turns on the winch. OTOH, If you don't like your crew, go straight onto the new tack and berate them for not getting it sheeted in quickly enough.

That's fine (and what I do) if there are crew! But single-handed, the problem is that tacking requires you to be in three places at once.

 

[dom]

But when short tacking a boat weighing a few tons, a fast start / slow finish tack can work much better and save huge amount of effort - ie holding the bow high of the course, letting the jib blow into place then tighten, before dropping down onto course. As well as saving effort, the momentum keeps you go8ng above the course, so gain over a fast tack and then struggle to sheet in. Putting the traveller over first, so the boom is close to centre after the tack to give drive and keep the bows up, is critical.
Worth trying if not done so.

Totally agree: with the right technique point and I can easily tack single-handed a 60m^2 genny and I ain't no muscle man.

I set up by pulling all the slack out of the lazy sheet and then taking two turns around its winch. Next, come up into the wind, slowing the rate of turn as the sail breaks well before head to wind. This gives time to release and clear the working sheet and take hold of the lazy sheet ready to pull in as much line as possible on the new tack as the boat comes around. If successful, one can even start to grind a little before the sail fully fills on the new tack.

This method is not the fastest/most efficient way to tack, but it is not that bad once one gets the hang of it. And it's really easy given the almost total lack of grinding under load.

As for the steering throughout this maneuver, as you suggest elsewhere, a good AP will manage the task very nicely indeed.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Surprised no one has replied have self jib tacking Hancie or Francis 26. Would be nice to hear views.

How do you give a Frances 26 a self-tacking jib?

 

[johnalison]

One can save a lot of the hard work tacking if the helm can hold the boat just off the wind on the new tack for long enough for the crew to sheet in the genny. Even hard on the wind, you'll only need a couple of turns on the winch. OTOH, If you don't like your crew, go straight onto the new tack and berate them for not getting it sheeted in quickly enough.

That is certainly what one aims for. My usual routine is to put the boat about after moving the traveller across and pull in the new jib sheet as much as I can before self-tailing it, at which point my wife hands me the winch-handle. This works absolutely fine most of the time but as luck would have it, in boisterous conditions, just when you want things to be easy, a wave will knock the bow off, causing the jib to fill prematurely on the new tack, leaving me to struggle to tension the jib. With twin lowers, it is never guaranteed that the sheets will cross smoothly.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

One can save a lot of the hard work tacking if the helm can hold the boat just off the wind on the new tack for long enough for the crew to sheet in the genny. Even hard on the wind, you'll only need a couple of turns on the winch. OTOH, If you don't like your crew, go straight onto the new tack and berate them for not getting it sheeted in quickly enough.

Excellent idea if you have slippery boat. Ours would mostly just stall as speed dropped too much. It was Ok as we tacked into a F6 head-sea-chop paying painful attention to speed and angle, but hardly relaxing. We general tack sloppy then round up into wind when going again to tighten genoa

 

[TernVI]

If you're going to need to do a lot of tacking, set a jib or take a few turns in the genoa.
A little less windward efficiency perhaps, but tacking quickly and having no risk of tangles goes a long way towards making up for that.

But there still comes a time when it's better to whack the engine on, so it heats the water for a shower or the washing up.

 

[Pye_End]

Surprised no one has replied have self jib tacking Hancie or Francis 26. Would be nice to hear views.

Cutter version of Frances 26:

The yankee is the biggest driver, but using it gives you a bigger tacking angle than the self tacking staysail alone.

My opinion is that the standard staysail is a little too small to beat without the yankee, and sometimes leads to missed tacks. However put one which is about as big as the boom will allow gets over this problem. The two big advantages of using just the self tacking staysail and main alone are ease of tack, and close tacking angle. It is also a combination which works well in high wind speeds, especially as it has a traditionall slab reefing arrangement. The disadvantage is lack of speed and a duller ride, but progress to windward is probably similar. It is also a good combination for motor sailing due to the close tacking angle.

Many people tack up and down the east coast rivers. Sometimes it is as fast or quicker to sail or motor sail than it is to motor, even taking into account the extra distance. There are so many factors to consider when deciding on best sail plan for the conditions - eg. length of boat, characteristics under sail and power, how much wind, tidal gates/deadlines, how long the passage is, what sort of passage is it, day/night, what your crew (if any) are like, what the skipper feels like. etc etc. All I can say is that I have a preferance to sail, second best is motor sailing, and worst is motoring, but do all 3.

 

[Poignard]

My Twister is easy to tack and, if not put through the wind too quickly, little winching is required. Also the sheet winches are not far from the tiller so one can steer with a buttock whilst handling the sheets.

I replaced the old bottom-action winches acouple of years ago with self-tailers and that has made it even easier.