Do you still beat to windward ?

[Kelpie]

I'm not sure if the question implies tacking or not. There's a big difference between laying a course hard on the wind on a single tack, and having to tack back and forth all day.
Generally we will sail somewhere that can be reached on one tack; we would rather have a great sail to somewhere acceptable, than have to motor to our preferred destination. I suppose it helps that we sail up and down the Minch where there are almost unlimited anchorages on either side, almost none constrained by tide.


But short tacking has its place as well. Some of our best days afloat have been spent working up narrow sea lochs, playing the wind shifts, feeling the slight favourable lift as you close the coast, watching the sounder and holding on until the last second before calling the tack. Best enjoyed on a sunny day with flat water and another boat just tucked in to your wind shadow

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

September 20th last year featured very warm light wind from ENE, and we were due to do a race around The Solent starting off Cowes. Due to the flood, and having no engine, we couldn't get across to the island side, so aborted and sailed up to Bucklers Hard. Naturally, the pub was shut and so we ate our sarnies on the grass in full sunshine. Sailing back to Hamble took about five hours. As we tacked seemingly endlessly up and down it we got to know Lepe Spit intimately. The bow nearly touched the beach every time we came in, much to the bemusement of the walkers. At one point, sitting to leeward I rested my hand on a groyne as we hovered next to it for what seemed like hours. Finally got over and round the spit and followed the beach (and the slower walkers) all the way up to Calshot Spit, the next barrier. Round that and home in sight, but the ebb in The Hamble entrance was just too much, and we thumbed a tow from a lovely couple in a Sonata. We'd tacked at least a hundred times, all flawless, nailed every shift and the kid's helming took a massive leap.

That was one of the best sails of my life. The race? Well if we'd sailed like that we'd have won it anyway, so not worth bothering really....

Sailing to windward is what it's all about for me - it's the F3 reach where I'd happily leave it to an autopilot.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I have a 7.5nm trip to make the open sea.

Very pretty ,and you can still get a sail in the heavy stuff . Buy quite narrow with lots of moorings.

I often have two other boats (both single handers and getting on a bit) I am usually the first
to dump the genoa and put the engine on . Normally, after no more than a couple of minutes they do the same.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Where are you at the moment with beating ?

I don't, if I can possibly avoid it. First choice is always to sail somewhere in a civilised way, second choice is to use the engine.

I used to be incredibly purist about this, to the extent of once taking two days to get from Colonsay to Iona, but then I read an article by Tom Cunliffe in which he wrote (I paraphrase) "You spend a fortune on your engine so you might as well use it" and a little lightbulb went bing! above my head.

That's not to say I disapprove of tacking; it's just not for me any more.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It always amazes me that 'cruising sailors' can always find a 'wind bang on the nose all day' to motor into, while those of us who set courses for races are plagued by winds that shift every few minutes and change half way aound the compass as the day progresses.

Perhaps because your courses are generally close inshore and so heavily affected by land effects?

 

[TernVI]

Perhaps because your courses are generally close inshore and so heavily affected by land effects?

Perhaps, but then the harbours people are trying to reach also tend to be somewhat inshore.

Even today, where the general picture is 'honking from the East', there is a general tendency in the forecast here for the wind to back through the day. Working with that sort of thing often makes a big difference.

 

[adwuk]

If we are are going somewhere, and the wind happens to be coming from that direction, then yes. We bought a sailing boat that happens to have an engine, not a motor boat.

 

[dunedin]

In winds below about 10 knots, most decent sailing boats will go faster upwind than downwind, due to the apparent wind speed.

Choosing a boat that is efficient on all points of sail was important to me, and good sails to give power without heeling.
Otherwise may as well get a mobo.

 

[WalterWall]

Isn't the true joy of sailing the variety it affords, no right, no wrong, just what suits the circumstances of the moment? With the boat characteristics setting the options available to the skipper.

Flexibility, to me, is the hallmark of pleasure sailing. So one day, this, another day that. Beating into a fresh breeze and spray in the face out in the cockpit for as long as it brings exhilaration and joy, iron topsail and main to drive and steady the boat if you've to be somewhere.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thinking about this a bit more. For me the propensity to motor to windward in a sailboat (-; started with the mass take up of furling headsails with the final nail in the coffin when mass use of in mast furling systems arrived. Big ghosters and No1, 2 etc Genoa and jibs allowed sailing yachts to be driven efficiently and fast to windward.

Having said that, JD’s TC quote is very apt and fits easily with the change in leisure use of boats, also reflected in their modern designs.

Each to their own, as long as they are enjoying their experience on the water.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

I can only conclude that I am no gentleman as I enjoy tacking to windward, striving to get the best out of the boat. The windvane gear helps enormously as, once set and the sails trimmed, it does a better job of helming Ladybird than me. Steers a lousy compass course though

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It always amazes me that 'cruising sailors' can always find a 'wind bang on the nose all day' to motor into, while those of us who set courses for races are plagued by winds that shift every few minutes and change half way aound the compass as the day progresses.

Personally I like sailing to windward. It's a game, a challenge to do it well.
I'd rather beat to a destination than motor for hours just to get somewhere a little further away.

I think some people get into a spiral of not considering windward performance when they buy a boat, not making the best of what their boat will do, so trying to sail much to windward is not much fun. So then they tend not to practice.
Then there's the YM theory culture which is all about CTS for a motorboat and nothing about how to make the best of getting to windward.

This last point is very true. I don't remember any discussion of VMG when I did my YM theory or practical. Luckily I enjoy sailing to windward even though progress can feel slow at times. Optimising that performance is part of the challenge to me. My Triton display calculates VMG and I use it a lot when sailing up wind.

 

[Lightwave395]

Where are you at the moment with beating ?

I love it, but as with some on this thread my boat goes to windward very well and whilst I use the pilot, I sometimes steer for hours on long trips when the boat and me are 'in the groove', might as well buy a mobo otherwise. The boat is balanced enough that the pilot doesn't do a whole lot of work when it is used.

 

[rotrax]

Well, First Mate and I are travellers by water as opposed to purist sailors. Our chosen boat is big, fat, heavy and has a small rig. It is not a vessel suitable for day sailing, but for travelling in. If the wind will not serve, up goes the Iron Jib.

It has a big engine, big tankage and is very comfortable. Since we changed from a 37 foot aft cockpit yacht our passage speed has increased by 1.5 KTS.

We use the sails when when the wind is suitable - 20 KTS true on the beam and like most sailing vessels she flies - 7.5 KTS with a clean bottom.

Not bad for a boat that weighs 17 tons with all the cruising gear and full tanks.

We make our plans for the cruising area and go there. The tide is used, of course, and the wind if it suits.

If it does not suit, we go anyway, except in extreme weather.

It suits our philosophy, but will not suit others. Horses for courses

 

[Daydream believer]

I cannot believe it, a windward thread-- 34 posts & no one has started a lea bow issue yet.
Then there is " What angle of heel can i safely sail & still run my engine for a bit of extra push"
No one has commented on that yet & it must have some relevance to the point that one stops "motor tacking" & motors straight into the wind
Then there is " when motoring to windward is it sensible to leave the mainsail up thus letting it flog or should one drop it & avoid damaging it"
( i mentioned that because I rarely motor with the sails up, i think it is bad form on the decent sails)

 

[Laminar Flow]

I think there are two aspects to the question of going to windward or not. The first is ability, boat or man and the second is one of choice.

Just because we mostly sail Bermudan rigs these days doesn't mean that this automatically makes the boat a windward racing machine. The hull has as much to do with it as the rig and a somewhat diminished ability to windward, in favour of other features, can well be a conscientious and considered choice.
In displacement craft a hull with a low CP (fine ends) will be, generally speaking, better to windward, whereas one with a higher CP (fuller ends) might excel at reaching and running when there is a likelihood of achieving higher speeds.

The same goes for the rig. High aspect rigs are superb at close angles whereas low aspect rigs will be superiour below 60 degrees and a gaff shape will be up to 50% more efficient between 70 degr and 140 degr. Fully battened sails are given a 15% bonus, up to 60degr, when establishing performance predictions.

This is where the choice begins. We have a motorsailer, high CP, shallow draft, low ketch rig. But, we do like sailing and she does go to weather; at least she does so now, with more sail and a cleaner under water shape. We wouldn't really bother short tacking up a river or drivimg her to weather in heavy going if we didn't have to. That is a choice, not a question of the boat's ability, though there are, no doubt, other models that do that much better. That said, in open water we have no problem laying a course close to the wind or doing long tacks. The pilot steers and I fiddle with the sails. All's well in fine weather and the Admiral doesn't really like the rough stuff.

Last time we sailed from Guernsey we left in such fine, gentle weather. Closehauled, we where doing 5kts when some 15 miles out from Brehat the wind picked up in minutes, gusting to F9 and right on the nose, of course. Within thirty minutes we were facing lines of continuously breaking 2m seas in short sequence. Dusk was beginning to set in; it would be dark soon.
Now, I do understand of course that the heroic thing to do would be to beat into this mess and then to short tack up the Trieux, between the rocks and the strong currents and all the way to Lezardrieux, preferably. Instead, we struck all sail, except for a sliver of the jib, the size of a hand towel, closed the wheelhouse door to the madness going on outside and motored straight into it, taking the seas at 45 degrees.

As Arctic Pilot said: "It depends".

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I think there are two aspects to the question of going to windward or not. The first is ability, boat or man and the second is one of choice.

Just because we mostly sail Bermudan rigs these days doesn't mean that this automatically makes the boat a windward racing machine. The hull has as much to do with it as the rig and a somewhat diminished ability to windward, in favour of other features, can well be a conscientious and considered choice.
In displacement craft a hull with a low CP (fine ends) will be, generally speaking, better to windward, whereas one with a higher CP (fuller ends) might excel at reaching and running when there is a likelihood of achieving higher speeds.

The same goes for the rig. High aspect rigs are superb at close angles whereas low aspect rigs will be superiour below 60 degrees and a gaff shape will be up to 50% more efficient between 70 degr and 140 degr. Fully battened sails are given a 15% bonus, up to 60degr, when establishing performance predictions.

This is where the choice begins. We have a motorsailer, high CP, shallow draft, low ketch rig. But, we do like sailing and she does go to weather; at least she does so now, with more sail and a cleaner under water shape. We wouldn't really bother short tacking up a river or drivimg her to weather in heavy going if we didn't have to. That is a choice, not a question of the boat's ability, though there are, no doubt, other models that do that much better. That said, in open water we have no problem laying a course close to the wind or doing long tacks. The pilot steers and I fiddle with the sails. All's well in fine weather and the Admiral doesn't really like the rough stuff.

Last time we sailed from Guernsey we left in such fine, gentle weather. Closehauled, we where doing 5kts when some 15 miles out from Brehat the wind picked up in minutes, gusting to F9 and right on the nose, of course. Within thirty minutes we were facing lines of continuously breaking 2m seas in short sequence. Dusk was beginning to set in; it would be dark soon.
Now, I do understand of course that the heroic thing to do would be to beat into this mess and then to short tack up the Trieux, between the rocks and the strong currents and all the way to Lezardrieux, preferably. Instead, we struck all sail, except for a sliver of the jib, the size of a hand towel, closed the wheelhouse door to the madness going on outside and motored straight into it, taking the seas at 45 degrees.

As Arctic Pilot said: "It depends".

I do wonder if the move to masthead rig fashion did cruisers any favours. There is so much more to winch in and out, particularly when short tacking and being lightly crewed.

I believe it came about more as untaxed canvas . The problem for cruisers, means
you can only have swept back spreaders up to a certain size boat and no one wants to fiddle with running backstays. I'm now a 3/4 rig convert, but it does mean that you need a high aspect rig and that would not suit everybody.

 

[johnalison]

The ability to work a boat to windward is the principal skill that distinguishes a sailor from a lubber. In effect, it is problem-solving in three dimensions and needs full use of one's senses, and probably the most satisfaction one can have when sailing. Having said that, when passage-making, a headwind can be a pain, and can make a passage non-viable when a boat is short-handed. In open water, my boat, which can achieve a VMG to windward of about 4.5kn in favourable conditions, may struggle to do 2.5. A 90-mile trip home from Ostend against a NW 5+ could take 40 hours and be uncomfortable in the process.

My boat is not particularly handy for short-tacking, so I have to admit to motoring in rivers as often as not, though I can exasperate my wife by insisting on beating out of the Orwell, even against the tide, when I feel like measuring my skill and patience. Not having Frank Singleton's hot-line to the weather-gods, I have to take what comes. The trick is not to become paranoid about contrary winds but actually to rejoice in the fact that we can cheat the wind by actually going the wrong way.

 

[ProDave]

What about day sailors returning to the point of departure? I sense there are few in that category in this thread. If you can day sail without sailing part of it upwind, then you are doing very well. i usually choose the upwind leg first with the downwind leg to get back, as usually winds here strengthen in the afternoon and it's nice to avoid the upwind leg in a stiffening wind. Sometimes the weeather has other plans and it changes direction so you have to beat home as well.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Perhaps, but then the harbours people are trying to reach also tend to be somewhat inshore.

True. I have a very useful little gadget on my boat - an arrow at the top of the mast which invariably points where I want to go.