Do you still beat to windward ?

[flaming]

When I think of the most fun (non racing) sails I can ever remember, none of them are reaches. One is a very memorable kite run from Dartmouth to the Solent in a building breeze, surfing down waves at speeds into the teens, but most are upwind. One in particular springs to mind, a beat in 15-20ish true from Cherbourg to Guernsey. Beautiful day, bit of spray and driving a boat that just loved going upwind. Super fun.
Others are working a boat all the way up the Orwell to the bridge against the wind without recourse to the engine, and also a lovely flat water sail in maybe 10 knots upwind from the Needles to Weymouth. Giving up about 3 miles short when the breeze died.

I have obviously sailed on a reach on plenty of occasions but they're not springing to mind as memorable fun sails. Probably because I wouldn't have been driving, but letting the autopilot do the work whilst I read a book or something. I remember one summer cruise quite a long time ago. We started in Brest and finished in La Rochelle I think. Every day had a 10-15 knot Westerly and we were going basically south. In the entire 2 week trip we tacked twice whilst clearing a port, didn't gybe, never reefed and never had the angle to use the kite. I was so, so bored. Every day was come out of the harbour, hoist sails, bear away and reach down the coast then drop sails and enter port. Idyllic maybe but dull, dull, dull...

But when I think of the least fun sails I can remember, they are also beats. Mostly in too much wind and too low temperatures with a deadline of some sort to meet.

 

[Daydream believer]

Because it's fun !!

View attachment 114112

Not when one has to spend time moving about below it is not

 

[Daydream believer]

I can see this two ways. My previous shallow draft boat could simply not make good headway against the wind, even in relatively flat water. Now, with an extra 70cm of keel and a far superior design (including a self tacking jib), sailing upwind can be a real pleasure and is certainly faster than motoring.... until the tide turns!

But surely, if it is faster sailing than motoring when WITH the tide it must be faster sailing than motoring AGAINST the tide. They are both passing through the same medium. Both just have further to go.

 

[flaming]

But surely, if it is faster sailing than motoring when WITH the tide it must be faster sailing than motoring AGAINST the tide. They are both passing through the same medium. Both just have further to go.

not necessarily...

When the tide turns you will find the TWS decrease for a given Ground wind. For example if you had a ground wind of 8 knots and a tide of 2 knots, when beating with the tide you have a TWS of 10 knots, but when beating against the tide you have a TWS of 6 knots. Most boats sail a lot slower in 6 knots than 10 knots, but the motoring speed will only be minimally affected.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It isn't being close-hauled - it's tacking. I will mostly be sailing single-handed for a while, and so tacking is something that is hard work and tiring. But being close-hauled is fine - as many have pointed out, the boat often travels faster when close-hauled than sailing downwind. I have no objection whatsoever to sailing close to the wind - what I don't want to be doing is constantly tacking!

My self tacker Solves that which means the boat loses little speed through the tack & the blade jib gets one closer to the wind than many boats once the breeze hits 10 kts plus. Less than that, many genoa boats gain, but even then,not when short tacking

 

[Daydream believer]

I replaced the old bottom-action winches acouple of years ago

Viking???

 

[Poignard]

Viking???

Gibb.

 

[Daydream believer]

Gibb.

My Stella had bottom action Viking. Made in Leigh on sea & fitted by Tucker brown as standard & for many years part of the class OD rules. One could only move the handle over an arc of about 100 degrees. Then when the sail was almost in, the ratchet would fail to engage & the sheet would shoot out.
The work of the devil. I still have them.
When I die I have told the wife to give them to my next door neighbour, as a special gift for his boat, to teach him a lesson for knackering the blades on my lawn mower that I loaned him.

 

[Stemar]

That's fine (and what I do) if there are crew! But single-handed, the problem is that tacking requires you to be in three places at once.

Ain't that the truth! If you crack it, let me know!

In theory, setting up a 60 deg change of course on the tiller pilot, sheeting in rapidly, then doing the other 30 (40 on a Snapdragon ) should do it, but I suspect I'd be going backwards by the time I got to the last bit.

 

[michael_w]

I remember doing the Fowey regatta in my Merlin-Rocket. We could outpoint everybody on the water,

 

[Lightwave395]

My most memorable beat in my current boat was the RSYC Solent to Brixham double handed race. Upwind in 30+ knot South Westerly all the way through the night, No4 headsail and 2 reefs.
There were a half dozen of us idiots that finished, the bulk of the fleet went into Weymouth. Probably the most uncomfortable 24 hrs I've spent on a boat but funny how it fades away after fish and chips and a couple of lunchtime beers when we got there !

 

[chrisedwards]

Junk rig owners smile knowingly...

Modern cambered junk rigs sail to windward very well. See Round the Island Results.

The joy of short tacking a 30 foot schooner, singlehanded, up the western arm of Newtown Creek, between every (occupied) mooring, with a cup of tea in hand. That's about twenty tacks all within about five boat lengths.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

My self tacker Solves that which means the boat loses little speed through the tack & the blade jib gets one closer to the wind than many boats once the breeze hits 10 kts plus. Less than that, many genoa boats gain, but even then,not when short tacking

Reminds me that the only thing I miss about hanked jibs is the blade jib. Full hoist short foot
and high foot for visibility.

Tom Cunliffe mentions a tactic called the "Gravesend Hitch" or "Huffling" when short taking
up a river in a foul tide. The tide being slacker near the edges of a river. When tacking, instead of throwing the boat through the tack, she is held head to wind before filling on the next tack to make maximum ground. The boat has to be moving well and the water needs to be flat.

Might be useful if you lose an engine. I expect the dinghy racers know all about this. Personally, I have enough of a challenge beating with the tide.

 

[newtothis]

Modern cambered junk rigs sail to windward very well. See Round the Island Results.
The joy of short tacking a 30 foot schooner, singlehanded, up the western arm of Newtown Creek, between every (occupied) mooring, with a cup of tea in hand. That's about twenty tacks all within about five boat lengths.

Yes, that's what I was implying... easy tacking by simply pushing the tiller over and none of this hauling on sheets like a demented gorilla.
From what I understand, the spit junk rigs go to windward quite well too.

 

[Ningaloo]

But surely, if it is faster sailing than motoring when WITH the tide it must be faster sailing than motoring AGAINST the tide. They are both passing through the same medium. Both just have further to go.

No, because sailing with the tide decreases the tacking angle, whereas against the tide will increase it. I am talking about SOG rather than STW.
Motoring you can ignore the wind and go straight towards your destination.
But you'll note that isn't what I chose to do. I prefer to anchor, rest and continue with favourable tide.

 

[JumbleDuck]

From what I understand, the spit junk rigs go to windward quite well too.

Twenty tacks to make five boat lengths, apparently ...

 

[flaming]

No, because sailing with the tide decreases the tacking angle, whereas against the tide will increase it. I am talking about SOG rather than STW.
Motoring you can ignore the wind and go straight towards your destination.
But you'll note that isn't what I chose to do. I prefer to anchor, rest and continue with favourable tide.

Sorry, but this isn't correct.

When you are sailing, whether that is on a lake or a tidal sea, the only thing that matters to your boat is the difference in velocity between the water and the air. So if the wind across the water, the "True Wind" is 8 knots then your boat will make the same VMG to windward relative to the water regardless of if that is due to a 6 knot ground wind and 2 knot favourable tide, an 8 knot ground wind and no tide, or a 10 knot ground wind and 2 knots of adverse tide.
You then just add the VMG to wind to the tide. So if your boat can make 4 knots VMG to windward in the given true wind, then with a 2 knot favourable tide it will do 6 knots VMG over the ground. And 2 Knots if the tide is going the other way. This is no different to a boat motoring at 4 knots directly into the wind.

The difference when the tide changes is the change in the true wind. If the Ground wind was 8 knots all day, then when our 2 knot tide is with us we actually have 10 knots of true wind with which to sail our boat to windward. When the tide is against us we will only have 6 knots. Most boats will sail significantly faster in 10 knots true than 6 knots true. So our VMG to windward is better with the tide simply, and only, because we have more true wind to power our boat.

Put it another way. Imagine that the ground wind is actually 20 knots. So with the 2 knot tide we are seeing 22 knots true, and against it we are seeing 18 knots true. In most boats the difference in upwind performance between 18 and 22 knots is almost zero. So in this instance the speed through the water will be the same, and the tacking angle the same. So the boat will VMG at (say) 5 knots to windward through the water in both cases. With the tide that will be 7 knots over the ground, against it 3 knots over the ground. But our boat motoring at 5 knots directly into the wind will be affected in exactly the same way. 7 knots over the gound with the tide, 3 knots against.

 

[capnsensible]

We spent some time beating to windward this morning. Well more accurately, we sailed up to Playa Blanca harbour, close hauled on port tack. Then we tacked over onto starboard. Then the wind died. So we went back to our Marina. Was a nice couple of hours out though. ?

 

[johnalison]

When I think of the most fun (non racing) sails I can ever remember, none of them are reaches.

I think that one may need to make a distinction between fun sailing and an enjoyable passage. I can remember a number of passages across the Channel and N Sea when we reached across in what appeared to be little time, which was very enjoyable at the time. Perhaps not as satisfying as a well-executed beat, but there is still interest in setting the sails precisely to gain the most speed with the least attantion to the helm.

In spite the pleasure I take in beating (sometimes), our easiest cruise was about 25 years ago when we sailed our then Sadler 29 fin from Essex to Guernsey, Jersey, and home, under sail most of the time and only putting about on one single occasion, between Alderney and St Peter Port.

 

[RupertW]

I have become a lot more intolerant of beating which I think is because my boats have become more comfortable. So now on a long passage I expect to have a hot shower each day and a fresh meal cooked from scratch and all washed up afterwards. I dislike having to get waterproofs on and off wet due to spray. I’ve got used to passage making in warm dry conditions mostly upright.

All fine for a day sail thrashing through the waves getting blasted by spray but now if it’s longer than an overnight I‘m looking for alternative routes or waiting for weather windows.