do we really have to avoid Belgium at all costs?

[Boo2]

What another perfect example of meddling interference in matters decided by the UK, and another example of why we must remove ourselves as a nation from the EU.

If you compare the cost of forcing all reacreational boating users to use white diesel with the financial advantage to us of remaining within the EU then you will see what a silly thing that is to say.

Boo2

 

[prv]

Wrong. British flagged vessels will be able to run on whatever fuel they want, EU rules would not be enforceable.

...in Britain.

In Belgian, French or Dutch harbours, their own law would apply - why would it not? And if their own law said "no red diesel in leisure boats" we would have no comeback, because there would be no connection between their law and ours.

Pete

 

[Boo2]

Wrong. British flagged vessels will be able to run on whatever fuel they want, EU rules would not be enforceable.

But if Belgium is ignoring the fact that the EU says EU citizens can run red diesel in their tanks if it is legally obtained then why would they behave differently if the UK was outside the EU ? Belgian officials are not fining people in accordance with EU or other national law but in accordance with Belgian law and in contradiction to EU law, so your position is just silly.

The real solution would be for someone to obtain substantial damages from the Belgian government in court but I don't know what the odds are of that ever happening...

Boo2

 

[MoodySabre]

I don't know why the RYA don't fund a case in the European Courts and get this ridiculous situation sorted out once and for all. They helped get us into this bind. I would rather pay more for my fuel and know I could go anywhere. The thought that going into Ostend, for example, as a safe haven in bad weather and risk getting caught for a E500 fine is untenable.

 

[davidej]

My only experience of this is being boarded by Dutch Customs soon after we had locked out of Vlissingen.

They were very polite and asked what colour my gasoline was. After a discussion about the petrol for the outboard, I realised it was the diesel they were interested in. As I had refulled in Holland (and had the receipt to prove it), I could say that it was white, even though there would be a large proportion of red left in the tank. They left as politely as they arrived - no suggestion of any testing.

 

[Rowana]

What another perfect example of meddling interference in matters decided by the UK, and another example of why we must remove ourselves as a nation from the EU.

Hear, hear - And the sooner the better!

 

[Wunja]

Talk about the local customs teams cutting off their noses to spite their faces... Lost thousands, if not millions, in spend coming into the country in response to a tax that most British boats cannot practically avoid not paying!!!!

It works (or not) both ways. On visiting the UK, unless we have tanks big enough for the return journey, we need to find a source of white diesel and don't have the advantage of having a car to ferry it back to the boat with!
E.G. Harwich, the nearest road fuel is 3 miles from the pier.

So us Europeans are less likely to make the UK our destination!

 

[maxi77]

What another perfect example of meddling interference in matters decided by the UK, and another example of why we must remove ourselves as a nation from the EU.

And just where would you find employment for the millions whose jobs would be lost, and whose taxes pay my pension.

 

[Habebty]

I have been put off going to Belgium and Holland due to diesel roulette. (you might get fined - you might not)

 

[pmagowan]

Why don't they change the rules to allow us all to have red diesel? How much tax is at stake and how does this stack up against the costs of enforcing let alone the costs of employment and tourism that the leisure boating industry provide. Is it really worth all this trouble?

 

[Supine Being]

Has anyone tried to engage with one of their MEPs on the subject? For those in Essex/Suffolk/Norfolk it looks like this could be the man to talk to as he is on the Transport and Tourism committee: www.geoffreyvanorden.com

For those of you in the SE region, it looks like T&T committee member is a Green: www.keithtaylormep.org.uk. Maybe doesn't seem that encouraging, but as he is still your MEP and is supposed to represent the interests of his constituents, so worth a letter I feel.

If you use this service to contact them (http://www.writetothem.com/) it makes them a little bit more open to account and maybe more inclined to take it seriously. Maybe not

 

[ithet]

Proof of purchase and TAX paid

I don't know why the RYA don't fund a case in the European Courts and get this ridiculous situation sorted out once and for all. They helped get us into this bind. I would rather pay more for my fuel and know I could go anywhere. The thought that going into Ostend, for example, as a safe haven in bad weather and risk getting caught for a E500 fine is untenable.

It works (or not) both ways. On visiting the UK, unless we have tanks big enough for the return journey, we need to find a source of white diesel and don't have the advantage of having a car to ferry it back to the boat with!
E.G. Harwich, the nearest road fuel is 3 miles from the pier.

So us Europeans are less likely to make the UK our destination!

Is this really correct? Surely if Red Diesel is purchased in the UK, and a VAT receipt obtained showing that VAT is paid there is proof of legal purchase. Further if the purchaser elects to pay the FULL rate on 100% and get a receipt for this there is no issue of VAT not being paid anyway.
According to the letter received from the EU by the RYA -
"People can acquire red diesel in the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if transported in the normal fuel storage tank."

No mention of nationality - just "people".


From the report in YM, The Belgium Customs are challenging the form of the PROOF of supply, and not the actual supply of Red Diesel from the UK. The "EU Letter" on the RYA website makes it clear that the proof lies with the yachtsperson-
"The EU Directorate-General for Communication has indicated that the onus of proving that full duty has been paid remains strictly with the purchaser."
The RYA also say "Keep receipts for diesel purchased in the UK, to prove that it was bought in the UK, and request that your retailer marks them "duty paid".

This is the nub of the issue raised by the OP - what paperwork and exact wording do we need when obtaining fuel in the UK to take abroad. Probably we need to get the RYA to further clarify this.

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectio...ating Abroad/EUCommLetterandTrans30Sept08.pdf

 

[Bosun Higgs]

how the bejezus am I going to fill up with white, nearest filling station to my mooring is over a mile away.

Quite easy - or so it seems from the numbers of mobo users round here that roll up to their boat with trailers full of 5 gallon containers of best agricultural diesel. And some of them are talking serious sized tanks.

 

[Boo2]

I don't know why the RYA don't fund a case in the European Courts

I do : cost.

Boo2

 

[MoodySabre]

I do : cost.

Boo2

They have plenty of money - cruising sailors are scarcely on their agenda.

 

[VO5]

They have plenty of money - cruising sailors are scarcely on their agenda.

If at all.

 

[JayBee]

A separate, but related issue is the difference between marine gas oil and diesel for road vehicle use, which now contains a proportion of bio products.

I have been told that the latter is unsuitable for long term use in boat engines. Is this the case?

I recently discussed the red diesel issue with some French sailors, who need to return home with red diesel in their tanks. It apparently used to be a problem in France, but isn't any more,

Also, the dye in red diesel is very persistent. How many refills of white does it take to remove all traces of the red?

 

[RobbieH]

If at all.

Hmm don't get me started on the Olympics 2012 and Portland Harbour. Blown a nasty hole in my cruising plans for next summer that has

 

[RobbieH]

I have been put off going to Belgium and Holland due to diesel roulette. (you might get fined - you might not)

My boat is in Belgium and we periodically get "raids" by les douanes to dip the tanks. Last time I was dipped I had a lovely shade of rosé as I had just come back from a cruise to IOW. I showed the customs my log book and receipts for fuel from UK and two jerrycans full of white diesel and heard no more.

I was less pleased to see globs of water and black s**t in the bottom of the sample bottle As it was a brand new s/s tank that year and all other fills came from petrol station via jerrycan and water trap filter I think that may possibly have been a present from a very expensive marina in a Solent river. Tank is out of the boat now and being steam cleaned with a water trap and draintap welded into the bottom of it. All fuel is going through a proper Racor funnel on the way in to the tank from now on too!

Anyway I think it can also depend on the humour of the customs officer and how you relate to them. If you give them the little Englander - Master under God bit - don't be surprised if get a cavity search (rummage in the lazarette) for good measure -

 

[Sybarite]

I don't know why the RYA don't fund a case in the European Courts and get this ridiculous situation sorted out once and for all. They helped get us into this bind. I would rather pay more for my fuel and know I could go anywhere. The thought that going into Ostend, for example, as a safe haven in bad weather and risk getting caught for a E500 fine is untenable.

+1


At least their legal dept could contact the authorities and get their official stance on the subject.