do we really have to avoid Belgium at all costs?

rickym said:
My understanding is that the fuel purchased in the CI's is duty paid (CI's duty) If that is 1% or 20% then it is OK. From memory the fuel in the CI's is white so no issues on dipping tanks.
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Well, marine diesel fuel in Guernsey is definitely red. And the duty rate there is 0%. So when you buy it there, I guess you can say that it is "duty paid" according to Guernsey law since marine diesel is not dutiable.

But what the Belgians would say about it I have no idea.
 
Burnham Bob said:
No reply to the e-mail to the Belgian Embassy asking for clarification. Mind you having just been informed by Navimo on another issue that e-mails submitted via their website often don't get to the right people, I'm losing faith in website links.

So today, letter sent to the Belgain Ambassador with the text of the e-mail and a request for clarification. If we get a definitive reply from him, I'll post a pdf of the letter for showing to the Belgian customers. If he supports the fines, at least we know where we stand and can ask the EU to intervene. (Assuming they can pay attention to the issue during the current crisis!)

If still no reply, I'll turn up on the doorstep!
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I wrote to my Euro MP some 2 years ago about this happening in Holland.

He assured me that the EU Commission had promised that it should not happen as the EU recognised the position in UK.

Suppose that shows how much trust you can put in those people
 
Belgian customs and red diesel

As this topic seems to keep people interested, I will check with my club secretary to get the latest on this. The clubs were going to help members fight fines in court.
As soon as I know more, I will let you know.
 
Burnham Bob said:
I'm armchair cruise planning at the moment because for all sorts of reasons our proposed first trip to holland this year never took place due to **** weather and prior commitments.

SWMBO doesn't fancy the direct route to Vlissingen from the Crouch or Harwich and wants to cross over the Thames estuary to Ramsgate (she likes Ramsgate!) and then to Dunkerque and coast hop to Vlissingen via Ostend.

However, we'd have a tank of red diesel when we start and although I can manage white diesel in the spare cans, I can still see me having some red diesel in the tank when we hit Ostend. Are the Belgians really imposing fines -despite the RYA having a letter from the EU for download that says you're okay as long as the red diesel is in the tank and you have receipts showing duty paid?
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You should proceed as normal. There is only one documented case of a UK registered boat being challenged in Belgian inland waterways and feeling obliged to pay a fine for carrying red diesel. In his situation I would not have paid, and this is the view of the senior Belgian yacht clubs too.

If you show a UK VAT paid receipt and keep a log of usage, you are most likely to satisfy any reasonable challenge. And unreasonable challenges should be resisted.

Clarification on this topic is being sought from the EU right now via the Parlaiment and will be posted when received.

PWG
 
Belgian Customs

I spoke to three Belgian Customs officers on the pontoon at Nieuwpoort today. They told me they have strict instructions from their hierarachy to issue a fine whenever they find red diesel in a yacht. Whether you have the relevant receipt to prove tax has been paid on the red diesel does not matter to them.
The Belgian tax administration's logic is that they issue a fine, you pay the fine and if you do not agree, you appeal to the administration, which may afterwards decide to waive (part of) the fine. It is the same logic as with income tax: first you pay, the administrations later works out how much you owe and pays back as appropriate.
The officers on the pontoon agreed that that is a very awkward situation. They have no instructions to target British-flagged boats though, and if you happen on a sympathetic exciseman/woman, they may only check your paperwork and forget to check your diesel ;-)
This is a situation which makes life difficult for both British yachtsmen and Belgian yachtsmen who sail to Britain or the Channel Islands. To put this right, legislation will have to change, or the Customs' hierarchy will have to change its approach. I will speak to my club secretary to find out how far they have got with their efforts.
 
Is this hassel only for UK boats?

Does this mess only apply to UK boats?

We're an Australian registered yacht and will be filling our very empty tanks here in Guernsey before heading west up the Channel in the next week or two.

Were thinking of stopping in Belgium/Holland - but reading this thread, we're not so sure....
 
We are in the situation that we can only buy red diesel at our marina, with a receipt, and are not allowed to fuel the boat from cans. Hence, we cannot avoid having red diesel, we cannot choose otherwise. The marina does not wish to pay for two tanks given the considerable cost involved, a prefectly reasonable position. I also understood that ones fuel system will display permanent evidence of red diesel? We have visited Holland several times in the past and enjoyed our trips, going via Belgium. It seems to me that saying one does not go into a Belgian port is not an option, one is still in their waters if going via Dover. Hence, these two coutries are now off our list and we hope the French dont start doing the same thing. Are these officials on commission?
 
HinewaisMan said:
Does this mess only apply to UK boats?

We're an Australian registered yacht and will be filling our very empty tanks here in Guernsey before heading west up the Channel in the next week or two.

Were thinking of stopping in Belgium/Holland - but reading this thread, we're not so sure....
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Many vessels (EU registered and otherwise) sailing north via the Channel Isles will fill up there and there is no legislation that prohibits passage through EU waters on account of the source of the fuel used on board. The claimed punitive attitude of certain cusoms officials to British boats entering their waters with red diesel is unenforcable, whatever they state. They would be de facto inhibiting free passage, a fundamental right of EU residents and visa carrying foreigners.

The history of this kerfuffle is that the UK permitted red tinted low/no excise fuel for pleasure sailing after this concession was withdrawn in Europe several years ago. A modified tax regime was introduced 3 seasons ago in the UK to ensure all UK registered pleasure vessels using red diesel paid a stipulated amount of tax. So all officials know UK vessels with red diesel have paid tax according to the country of their registration.

Fuel taxation varies between countries thoughout the EU but there is nothing any country can do to equalise this situation: eg fuel duty is particularly low in Luxemburg, set for their own commercial purposes, but trucks then entering France from Luxemburg are not stopped and hit with a fine to equalise the tax. Just let them try it! So the precedent is clear.

You are passing through EU waters, have obtained your fuel legally, can show the provenance of your fuel and matched your stock with the hours of engine use, so it is clear you have not traded your fuel for gain (or some such stupid allegation) You have therefore not committed any infringement and are entitled to proceed on your way without harrassment.

I think you will find the reality on the ground is nothing like as negative as some posts here suggest. Well, that's my experience.

PWG
 
I think Westhinder's on the spot information shows that fines for red diesel are 'official' Belgian policy although at what level it has been determined is unclear.

I would be surprised if anyone can get this in writing though which would be the basis for a formal complaint to whoever is in charge of this bureaucratic mess.

Still hoping the Belgian Ambassador to the UK will reply to my letter in due course.
 
Thanks for the information Westhinder.

Regardless of what we think the rules should be - and the view that if duty has been paid on red diesel then there is no case to answer - Belgium has a different interpretation.

My understanding of the Belgian stance is that the EU directive prohibits fiscally marked (i.e. red) diesel in pleasure craft and that is the issue. It does not matter what duty has been paid on it.
 
BarryT said:
Thanks for the information Westhinder.

Regardless of what we think the rules should be - and the view that if duty has been paid on red diesel then there is no case to answer - Belgium has a different interpretation.

My understanding of the Belgian stance is that the EU directive prohibits fiscally marked (i.e. red) diesel in pleasure craft and that is the issue. It does not matter what duty has been paid on it.
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I've asked this before, but not sure I got a definitive answer. As we are paying for unmarked diesel, why can't we have it? It's not normally an acceptable excuse for a supplier to claim that it's inconvenient. Try telling the Revenue that it will cost too much to pay your tax bill.
 
BarryT said:
Thanks for the information Westhinder.

Regardless of what we think the rules should be - and the view that if duty has been paid on red diesel then there is no case to answer - Belgium has a different interpretation.

My understanding of the Belgian stance is that the EU directive prohibits fiscally marked (i.e. red) diesel in pleasure craft and that is the issue. It does not matter what duty has been paid on it.
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You are right.
I may add that Belgian Customs and Excise also routinely stop and check cars and trucks on possible use of red diesel. Red diesel is legal for agricultural vehicles only.
But as it is the same product as heating fuel, the temptation exists to use it instead of the much more expensive white diesel. When they do road checks, they always find a small percentage do effectively use red diesel.
 
In reply to Dan's query, red diesel is still the standard marine fuel for fishermen etc. marinas don't want to stock both red and white, so they stick to red. i think way back in this thread i suggested that instead of us having to get receipts marked duty paid, as the majority of marinas serve leisure sailors and not fishermen, it would be better to sell us white diesel at duty paid rates and then for fishermen and commercial users to have a certificate that allowed them to buy diesel without the duty.

mind you, that doesn't get round the fact that the 60:40 split is still appropriate as lots of craft use diesel for heating and cooking so that should be free of duty. so, any fuel that isn't marked and sold at 60:40 split duty rates could theoretically be siphoned off and used in your diesel car or van and without the red dye would not be detectable. so if i was really determined, i could run my car on marina supplied diesel and only pay 60:40 split duty.

so unless we are happy to give up the 60:40 split, the diesel will still be marked to prevent road use. sounds to me like other EU countries have said 'you will pay full duty on every litre regardless of whether it is used for propulsion or heating'.

what seemed like a good idea to protect leisure sailors from the full impact of the EU move against red diesel now seems to be locking us up in these islands - regardless of the letter of the EU law and our fudge of a compromise.

however, it still shouldn't be happening.....the belgian and dutch officials are wrong to fine us for having red diesel in our tanks and on which we have paid the official UK duty

i'm still hoping for a reply from the belgian ambassador...... :)
 
Belgian Customs

My club secretary told me today that he had been in touch with the director of Customs and Excise, who assured him that no fines would be levied, provided we have the paperwork to prove that the appropriate tax was paid in the UK. This should apply both to local and visiting yachts.
That is definitely a different line than I was given last Sunday by three Customs officers on the pontoon. It seems the director still has some communications work to do within his own organisation.
So the bottom line seems to be: do not pay any fines for red diesel.
 
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