do we really have to avoid Belgium at all costs?

[Tranona]

I'd be interested to know how they made transition on the continent. Did the fuel suppliers bear all the costs of re-equipping or were there subsidies? Maybe this is something that has happened gradually over many years? I'm thinking more of France, Spain, and Italy than Belgium with its shorter coastline and limited number of marinas. Anyone know why it seems to be more of a problem for us than them?

Think that most countries already had duty on fuel for leisure boating, so were not faced with the same problem.

 

[Tranona]

Strange definition of 'success'



So, exactly who is breaking/bending the law here?

As stated above: the UK arrangement works perfectly well if you never leave the UK. Once you go abroad, it all becomes rather 'unstuck'.
So I find it puzzling that you deem the current arrangement to be a success.

Maybe it's a just fiendish scheme to promote the boaty staycation.

"Success" in terms of fighting the corner for leisure boaters and getting concessions from government to mitigate the impact of the new law. But inevitably there are downsides, which is the subject of this thread.

As to who is breaking the law, the EU says HMG is, and HMG says it is not and the concession as defined is not illegal - even though the consequence is against the intention of the law.

As there is no arbiter available to decide who is right or wrong, one side will have to admit defeat - or a new compromise accepted (unlikely). Good thing the Greeks are screwing up the Euro so the politicians don't have time to deal with these minor matters.

 

[VO5]

I can understand the Belgian posture on red diesel but only if the diesel is for import to Belgium. But if the diesel remains in the tank and is only for the consumption of a British flagged vessel visiting how can they impose fines ?
Surely it is akin to bonded stores on board, is it not ?

 

[Sybarite]

I have sent the following mail to the Belgian Douane information service:

Messieurs

Je participe dans un forum anglais organisé par une maison d’édition qui édite les principales magazines britanniques de bateaux .

On discute actuellement des inspections des douanes belge et néerlandaise concernant le diesel rouge et des pénalités encourues par des navigateurs malgré le fait que la vente soit (encore) légale dans la Royaume Unie.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291897

Je joins la notification de la RYA concernant la légalité de posséder du diesel rouge

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/reddiesel/Pages/reddiesel.aspx

The EU Directorate-General for Taxation and Customs has confirmed that:-

· "According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of acquisition according to the national rules

· It falls upon the Commission to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law

· People can acquire red diesel in the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if transported in the normal fuel storage tank."

J’apprécierais de connaître la position officielle de la Douane à ce sujet ainsi que les mesures à entreprendre si, par malchance, un navigateur a déjà reçu à tort une amende en cette circonstance.

Vous voudrez bien confirmer en même temps que si un national belge rentre au Belgique après avoir fait le plein en Angleterre qu’il soit également en conformité avec la loi.

Je ne manquerai pas de porter vos observations à la connaissance des participants du forum.
Je vous prie de recevoir, Messieurs, l’expression de mes sentiments distingués.

 

[savageseadog]

I can understand the Belgian posture on red diesel but only if the diesel is for import to Belgium. But if the diesel remains in the tank and is only for the consumption of a British flagged vessel visiting how can they impose fines ?
Surely it is akin to bonded stores on board, is it not ?

That is pretty much what I said before

 

[dt4134]

Ha ha!

Does it work the other way round? If so, I will probably go to Ostend via Crosshaven.

I doubt it, the red seems to be the stronger colour. Anyway, they both have the same chemical marker in them. On the other hand there seem to be quite a few entrepreneurs on the Armagh-Louth border who are alledgedly adept at removing both colour and chemical marker.

 

[macd]

Does anyone happen to know if, say, Belgian law specifically proscribes using "red diesel" in boats, as opposed to "diesel fuel on which duty has not been paid" (or some such phrase). I can well imagine that might be the case, in which case it's an irrational logical jump to conclude that red diesel in a boat's tank in Belgium is non-duty paid and therefore illegal. If one were prosecuted for the offence, would the charge be "using red diesel" or "failing to pay duty". And how would "red diesel" be defined in law (since anyone could pour food dye in their tank if if they wished)?

 

[Burnham Bob]

Well done Sybarite. I used the Belgian embassy's e-mail enquiry service to ask them to clarify the position, quoting much the same RYA stuff as you did, but so far have heard nothing. I'm quite bolshy enough to turn up on their doorstep and ask to see someone if I don't get a reply and as I sent the e-mail a few days ago, it's seeming less and less likely.

I think a written reply from the Belgian ambassador would carry more weight with Belgian officials than the RYA letter - after all doesn't everyone dislike the EU these days - but for all sorts of different reasons!

 

[Koeketiene]

I'm quite bolshy enough to turn up on their doorstep and ask to see someone if I don't get a reply and as I sent the e-mail a few days ago

Good luck - let us know how you get on.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Indeed, but the EU seems to think this practice is illegal. This may or may not be correct; I think the directive quoted is rather vague on this point.

I agree, it's very vague - which is all the more reason for the RYA to get a decent lawyer on it.

From the directive:

"2. Member States may allow exceptions to the application of the fiscal marker provided for in paragraph 1 on grounds of public health or safety or for other technical reasons, provided they take appropriate fiscal supervision measures.

Moreover, Ireland may decide not to use or allow use of this marker in accordance with Article 21 (4) of Directive 92/12/EEC. In such a situation Ireland shall inform the Commission, which shall inform the other Member States."

I see Ireland managed to get an opt out - would it be that hard for the UK to do the same?

Regardless I guess the UK would argue that they have technical reasons (not wanting separate tanks, which is a total waste of energy, resources and cost and doubles the pollution created due to cleaning tanks, etc.) and that they have appropriate fiscal supervision is in place (you declare the 60/40 split or whatever is appropriate). Maybe the MP who asked the question in the first place would ask the EU to clarify exactly which part they feel the UK is not complying with.

More to the point, I suspect the Douanes are picking people up on not paying the tax, as opposed to using marked fuel. Be interesting to see what the exact offences where.

 

[macd]

More to the point, I suspect the Douanes are picking people up on not paying the tax, as opposed to using marked fuel. Be interesting to see what the exact offences where.

Pretty much the point I tried to make earlier. I can certainly see the Douanes taking exception to fuel bought at 60:40. Perhaps as far as they're concerned, duty hasn't been paid on 4/10 of it. But again, if that is the case, visitors need to know.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Lots of legal talk here but the problem is that officials often do not know, or choose to avoid the law.

When you are off a a nice cruise, it can be severely spoiled by having to argue with them.

To get back to the OP's question, it seems that unless you want the risk of a fine or an argument, you should avoid Belgium and Holland.

We are thinking about the Baltic again for next summer. I will go nonstop from Dover to Cuxhaven as we did last time. Not worth the fuss IMHO, which is a shame.

 

[macd]

Lots of legal talk here but the problem is that officials often do not know, or choose to avoid the law.

When you are off a a nice cruise, it can be severely spoiled by having to argue with them.

To get back to the OP's question, it seems that unless you want the risk of a fine or an argument, you should avoid Belgium and Holland.

All the more reason to resolve the matter. It's absurd that boats are afraid to visit countries with which we supposedly have an economic union, not to mention free movement of goods and people.

So good luck to Sybarite and Burnham Bob. If either gets a satisfactory answer, perhaps they should bill the RYA?

 

[Tranona]

All the more reason to resolve the matter. It's absurd that boats are afraid to visit countries with which we supposedly have an economic union, not to mention free movement of goods and people.

So good luck to Sybarite and Burnham Bob. If either gets a satisfactory answer, perhaps they should bill the RYA?

As already pointed out - the RYA AND HMG are "on the case". The government is resisting EU attempts to change the present arrangements. They argue that the current duty collection arrangements are legal and the approved letter explains that duty has been paid if you have a receipt.

It is not known whether refusal to accept the letter is official policy or just actions of local officials.

It is a pity that individual people suffer from the consequence of disputes between nations, but this is nothing new and we have to rely on our rulers to resolve it - which does not preclude putting pressure on them through MPs media and representative organisations.

 

[Burnham Bob]

mmmmmm.... seems that we have to prove that duty was paid. I always take advantage of the 60:40 split in duty when buying red diesel because although we are a sailing vessel and don't have a diesel heater, we do run the engine to charge the batteries which operate the fridge as we have to keep medication refrigerated.

in the light of previosu posts is the 60:40 split going to add to the problem?

 

[sailorman]

mmmmmm.... seems that we have to prove that duty was paid. I always take advantage of the 60:40 split in duty when buying red diesel because although we are a sailing vessel and don't have a diesel heater, we do run the engine to charge the batteries which operate the fridge as we have to keep medication refrigerated.

in the light of previosu posts is the 60:40 split going to add to the problem?

in the light of previosu posts is the 60:40 split going to add to the problem?

IT IS the problem

 

[Lucky Duck]

We are thinking about the Baltic again for next summer. I will go nonstop from Dover to Cuxhaven as we did last time. Not worth the fuss IMHO, which is a shame.

In one of the recent incidents (around May time this year) the boat was on passage when stopped and fined for having red diesel in its tanks

 

[Burnham Bob]

No reply to the e-mail to the Belgian Embassy asking for clarification. Mind you having just been informed by Navimo on another issue that e-mails submitted via their website often don't get to the right people, I'm losing faith in website links.

So today, letter sent to the Belgain Ambassador with the text of the e-mail and a request for clarification. If we get a definitive reply from him, I'll post a pdf of the letter for showing to the Belgian customers. If he supports the fines, at least we know where we stand and can ask the EU to intervene. (Assuming they can pay attention to the issue during the current crisis!)

If still no reply, I'll turn up on the doorstep!

 

[Dockhead]

Sorry, a bit of thread drift --

My tanks are presently full of diesel bought in Guernsey last August. Guernsey is not in the EU. I presume that I am allowed to enter the EU (either UK or Belgium) with whatever fuel I have on board for current use of the ship, correct? And that it is not dutiable when brought in this way, whether it is white, red, or green?

Or is my understanding faulty?

 

[rickym]

My understanding is that the fuel purchased in the CI's is duty paid (CI's duty) If that is 1% or 20% then it is OK. From memory the fuel in the CI's is white so no issues on dipping tanks.