do we really have to avoid Belgium at all costs?

[Koeketiene]

Anyway I think it can also depend on the humour of the customs officer and how you relate to them. If you give them the little Englander - Master under God bit - don't be surprised if get a cavity search (rummage in the lazarette) for good measure -

Well said.
Due to where I sail sometimes I have no other option but to fill up with 'red'.
Douanes in Ostend (nearly always the same ones) know very well my diesel is 'pink'.
'Try not to full up with red' is about as bad as it gets.
PS: offering coffee helps.

 

[sailorman]

Well said.
Due to where I sail sometimes I have no other option but to fill up with 'red'.
Douanes in Ostend (nearly always the same ones) know very well my diesel is 'pink'.
'Try not to full up with red' is about as bad as it gets.
PS: offering coffee helps.

Dont they drink G & Tea then

 

[Hoolie]

Why don't they change the rules to allow us all to have red diesel? ... ... ... Is it really worth all this trouble?

It would be much more logical to allow private boats to have white diesel at red diesel prices. I know there are problems in some places with fishing boats, but most marinas could switch to white without any problems.

 

[Koeketiene]

It would be much more logical to allow private boats to have white diesel at red diesel prices.

Yes, it would.
But that would also mean that marinas would have to bear the cost of cleaning their tanks.
And it's exactly because of this extra cost that the RYA championed the current half-arsed system.

 

[dt4134]

Also, the dye in red diesel is very persistent. How many refills of white does it take to remove all traces of the red?

Quite a few. I filled up an almost empty tank with green on a visit to Cork. Then diesel came down in price and I found it easier to use white for a couple of years. There was still a definite green colour. The only way I got rid of it was to fill up with red.

 

[JayBee]

Quite a few. I filled up an almost empty tank with green on a visit to Cork. Then diesel came down in price and I found it easier to use white for a couple of years. There was still a definite green colour. The only way I got rid of it was to fill up with red.

Ha ha!

Does it work the other way round? If so, I will probably go to Ostend via Crosshaven.

 

[mihtjel]

As I'm sure you will have seen, a question has been asked of the European commission about this:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2011-005901+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

"... What action will the Commission take to ensure that British users of red diesel who hold valid receipts showing UK duty has been paid are not illegally fined in Belgian waters?"

And the answer, interestingly:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2011-005901&language=EN

"... The Commission believes that allowing the use of marked gas oil to propel private pleasure crafts where that fuel has neither been exempted nor subject to a reduction of excise duty, runs counter to Directive 95/60/EC."

So apparently the commission believes that if full duty is paid, the diesel has to be "white"...

 

[sailorman]

As I'm sure you will have seen, a question has been asked of the European commission about this:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2011-005901+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

"... What action will the Commission take to ensure that British users of red diesel who hold valid receipts showing UK duty has been paid are not illegally fined in Belgian waters?"

And the answer, interestingly:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=E-2011-005901&language=EN

"... The Commission believes that allowing the use of marked gas oil to propel private pleasure crafts where that fuel has neither been exempted nor subject to a reduction of excise duty, runs counter to Directive 95/60/EC."

So apparently the commission believes that if full duty is paid, the diesel has to be "white"...

It is quite possible to pay 100% top rate duty on Red if one wishes so to do.
you then have a full duty paid receipt

 

[mihtjel]

It is quite possible to pay 100% top rate duty on Red if one wishes so to do.
you then have a full duty paid receipt

Indeed, but the EU seems to think this practice is illegal. This may or may not be correct; I think the directive quoted is rather vague on this point.

 

[prv]

It would be much more logical to allow private boats to have white diesel at red diesel prices.

If I could load white diesel onto my boat at red prices, I'd buy a diesel car immediately!

Ok, maybe I wouldn't, but it's pretty obvious why this idea is a non-starter.

Pete

 

[sailorman]

Indeed, but the EU seems to think this practice is illegal. This may or may not be correct; I think the directive quoted is rather vague on this point.

if Belgian Nationals returning from the UK, Red is ok as long as they can prove 100% duty has been paid

 

[mihtjel]

if Belgian Nationals returning from the UK, Red is ok as long as they can prove 100% duty has been paid

As I said, according to the European Commission, selling red diesel with 100% duty paid is "illegal" - or rather, does not follow the aforementioned directive.

So it appears there are further issues than the straightforward duty paid/not paid issue.


And to add a little twist to the discussion: Danish tax legislation very clearly only allows import of fuel in the normal tanks of _road_ vehicles - not sailing vessels. There are rules that allow some such things for commercial vessels, but no mention is made of such an allowance for private pleasure craft. I don't think they enforce it, though, but who knows...

 

[Boo2]

If I could load white diesel onto my boat at red prices, I'd buy a diesel car immediately!

Ok, maybe I wouldn't, but it's pretty obvious why this idea is a non-starter.

Not really because the threat of having your car tank tested is remote in the extreme for most car owners.

Boo2

 

[prv]

Not really because the threat of having your car tank tested is remote in the extreme for most car owners.

Um, surely that reinforces my point?

(I'm talking from the point of view of "the authorities" whose decision it is.)

Pete

 

[mihtjel]

Um, surely that reinforces my point?

(I'm talking from the point of view of "the authorities" whose decision it is.)

Pete

Uh, no.

It suggests that if people were going to cheat, they would be doing so already, as the chance of getting caught is almost non-existent.


However, selling white diesel with reduced duty would clearly be against the EU directive, so it is perhaps not likely that the government would do this.

 

[Tranona]

At least their legal dept could contact the authorities and get their official stance on the subject.

Suggest you look on the RYA site. There are two articles on the subject, one on the action they (with HMG) are taking to counter the EU attempts to stop the current arrangements and the second specifically about the action they are taking with the Belgian authorities.

Don't know whether they will be effective, but if not won't be through lack of effort as the current agreement on duty is one of the RYA/BMF success stories.

 

[MoodySabre]

the current agreement on duty is one of the RYA/BMF success stories.

If you stay in the UK and have a mobo then I suppose it is a success. Not much of a success if you get caught for E500 fine on your holidays The Europeans aren't interested in UK law - that's why it needs a test case against these fines in the European Court.

 

[Tranona]

If you stay in the UK and have a mobo then I suppose it is a success. Not much of a success if you get caught for E500 fine on your holidays The Europeans aren't interested in UK law - that's why it needs a test case against these fines in the European Court.

It is not a question of law - the EU law is clear, you cannot use red (ie non duty paid) for leisure boat propulsion. The "concession" from the UK government is based on the notion that not all of the diesel used in a boat is is for propulsion, but some for power generation and heating. The arrangement is that you declare that part of your purchase is for these purposes, which are not subject to the same duty, thus reducing the overall cost of your fill up. Your receipt will show you have paid duty on your propulsion element. That is clearly not acceptable to the Belgians (and probably Dutch) who only see red as indicating it is not duty paid.

There is no doubt the UK position is a compromise, and would only work if the revenue colludes - which it does. However, the EU argument is that it is not the correct interpretation of the law as implemented by every other member state.

The decision by HMG was as much about ensuring continuity of supplies (avoiding the need for two tanks at waterside fuel suppliers) as reducing the cost to boaters.

Doubt that a "test case" in Belgium would be right way to go when the principle is unresolved at EU level.

 

[Supine Being]

The decision by HMG was as much about ensuring continuity of supplies (avoiding the need for two tanks at waterside fuel suppliers) as reducing the cost to boaters.

I'd be interested to know how they made transition on the continent. Did the fuel suppliers bear all the costs of re-equipping or were there subsidies? Maybe this is something that has happened gradually over many years? I'm thinking more of France, Spain, and Italy than Belgium with its shorter coastline and limited number of marinas. Anyone know why it seems to be more of a problem for us than them?

 

[Koeketiene]

Don't know whether they will be effective, but if not won't be through lack of effort as the current agreement on duty is one of the RYA/BMF success stories.

Strange definition of 'success'

It is not a question of law - the EU law is clear, you cannot use red (ie non duty paid) for leisure boat propulsion. The "concession" from the UK government is based on the notion that not all of the diesel used in a boat is is for propulsion, but some for power generation and heating. The arrangement is that you declare that part of your purchase is for these purposes, which are not subject to the same duty, thus reducing the overall cost of your fill up. Your receipt will show you have paid duty on your propulsion element. That is clearly not acceptable to the Belgians (and probably Dutch) who only see red as indicating it is not duty paid.

There is no doubt the UK position is a compromise, and would only work if the revenue colludes - which it does. However, the EU argument is that it is not the correct interpretation of the law as implemented by every other member state.

So, exactly who is breaking/bending the law here?

As stated above: the UK arrangement works perfectly well if you never leave the UK. Once you go abroad, it all becomes rather 'unstuck'.
So I find it puzzling that you deem the current arrangement to be a success.

Maybe it's a just fiendish scheme to promote the boaty staycation.