Do we now need an electric boat forum???

[Bigplumbs]

So, contrary to your comment #36, there are people regularly doing long distance journeys

Must be lovely freezing your cobs off in a noddy car on a long journey cos you dare not put the heater on

 

[Binnacle]

Less is more

Such a shame that you find difficulty in following a few paragraphs of cogent reasoning from someone who has professional knowledge of fuels and especially in a maritime environment.

Not every discussion can be reduced to Janet and John level, much as you might find it easier.

 

[julians]

I cant see electric propulsion being used by a majority of recreational motor boaters for a very long time, there just isnt the energy density in the batteries to make it viable. its use will grow as battery technology improves though.

For cars its a different matter - they have much lower energy requirements than boats, and every year the cars and the charging infrastructure improves a little bit making them more and more viable for more people. If the way I used my car (or the car I drive) meant that I had to use public chargers for the majority (or even a significant minority) of the recharging then it wouldnt be viable (as per martxer), but for me probably not because of the time taken to recharge, its more the cost of a KWH of electric that is the problem - usually 85p per KWH on most rapid chargers if you dont pay a monthly subscription, which would make running an electric car more expensive than running a petrol car.

As it is though my usage means I dont need many public chargers, we can mostly just recharge over night at home on cheap electric ,so we've just bought an electric car, will see how it goes over the next year or so, but so far its pretty good.

 

[Greg2]

Lots of comments about EVs in this debate. I have already said that in my view electric is a non-starter for cruising boats unless something changes significantly but cars are a different matter.

My personal motor is a diesel 4x4 which I like and it enables use to tow so there is no way I would swap it for an EV right now. I’m fact, until things are more certain about infrastructure and battery technology improves (sodium?) I wouldn't consider shelling out what is a decent chunk of our money for one.

BUT I also have an EV provided through work. Nothing special - a Hyundai Kona so the bottom end of the EV market but it has the larger 64kwh battery. There is no getting away from the fact that it is a great wee car, fun to drive and it has plenty of range that covers what I need to do 99% of the time without having to charge away from home, which currently costs around 9 pence per kwh on our current tariff. Nominal range is just shy of 300 miles in the summer (temperature matters) and I work on having a minimum safe 200 mile range in winter with heat/air con and driving normally i.e not going slowly to conserve battery power. There is literally nothing not to like about it and plenty of things to like. Not what I would describe as a Noddy car
.

 

[oldgit]

Conversion.
Remove .
1000 litres of fuel + Tank 900 K
2 x engines with gearboxes 850 K Dry Weight
Total 1750 K.
Max 23 Knots

1 x electric motor and a fair number of batteries plus a bit of solar charging
Might be a lot slower but its still boating, unless of course speed is your only priority.
Max 8-10 Knots.
Weight in a boat is far less of a problem than in any EV.

As for progress do try to keep up on those Penny Farthings.



"The hybrid boat will operate solely on battery power while transporting commuters and sightseers through the Capital – in the Central Zone, between Tower and Battersea Power Station piers – and recharge while using biofuelled power outside of central London. Offering an emissions reduction of 16.5 per cent when compared with running on biofuel alone throughout all parts of the route.
he business plans to introduce a hybrid system as a minimum with any new vessels and where possible, fully electrified or zero emission technology. In addition to the three hybrid catamarans, work is under way to deliver London’s first fully electric Zero Emission Cross River Ferry between Canary Wharf and Rotherhithe by the spring of 2025 – the first of its kind in the UK. The company’s plans to 2030 include an investment of £70 million in new fleet."


For those of us who actually boat on the lower Thames the biggest improvement has been the speed restrictions keeping the wash down ( a bit).
A plan to go into central London on a Xmas trip next week .......by boat of course.
Drive ?
Gravesend and Tilbury to London – Uber Boat by Thames Clippers
A whacking great discount for a the old, the infirm, the poverty stricken and by therefore most boat owners. ?

 

[flaming]

Such a shame that you find difficulty in following a few paragraphs of cogent reasoning from someone who has professional knowledge of fuels and especially in a maritime environment.

Not every discussion can be reduced to Janet and John level, much as you might find it easier.

I wasn't aware I had professional knowledge of fuels in a maritime environment!

 

[westernman]

Conversion.
Remove .
1000 litres of fuel + Tank 900 K
2 x engines with gearboxes 850 K Dry Weight
Total 1750 K.
Max 23 Knots

1 x electric motor and a fair number of batteries plus a bit of solar charging
Might be a lot slower but its still boating, unless of course speed is your only priority.
Max 8-10 Knots.
Weight in a boat is far less of a problem than in any EV.

As for progress do try to keep up on those Penny Farthings.



"The hybrid boat will operate solely on battery power while transporting commuters and sightseers through the Capital – in the Central Zone, between Tower and Battersea Power Station piers – and recharge while using biofuelled power outside of central London. Offering an emissions reduction of 16.5 per cent when compared with running on biofuel alone throughout all parts of the route.
he business plans to introduce a hybrid system as a minimum with any new vessels and where possible, fully electrified or zero emission technology. In addition to the three hybrid catamarans, work is under way to deliver London’s first fully electric Zero Emission Cross River Ferry between Canary Wharf and Rotherhithe by the spring of 2025 – the first of its kind in the UK. The company’s plans to 2030 include an investment of £70 million in new fleet."


For those of us who actually boat on the lower Thames the biggest improvement has been the speed restrictions keeping the wash down ( a bit).
A plan to go into central London on a Xmas trip next week .......by boat of course.
Drive ?
Gravesend and Tilbury to London – Uber Boat by Thames Clippers
A whacking great discount for a the old, the infirm, the poverty stricken and by therefore most boat owners. ?

16.5% reduction in emissions for all that trouble does not seem much.

How much reduction in emissions would they get if they simply slowed down a bit more??
They probably already slow down when running on batteries.

 

[flaming]

16.5% reduction in emissions for all that trouble does not seem much.

How much reduction in emissions would they get if they simply slowed down a bit more??
They probably already slow down when running on batteries.

I think the point is more to not be producing emissions in the centre of the city, in line with the ULEZ debate etc. Air quality more than emissions. They are already speed limited above Tower Bridge.

Mind you, having been on those boats a few times recently, they're very busy, so with the efficiencies of a catamaran it wouldn't surprise me at all if their emissions per passenger mile compared very favourably with a Diesel bus.

 

[kashurst]

Must be lovely freezing your cobs off in a noddy car on a long journey cos you dare not put the heater on

this was two days ago after a 300 mile round trip. If you look carefully the last 100 miles the climate control managed to consume a MASSIVE 3%. The effect on range was well - sod all. It was a bit nippy outside about 5 degrees C at night.

 

[Time Out]

Must be lovely freezing your cobs off in a noddy car on a long journey cos you dare not put the heater on

My heater works just fine

Yup this is my town car

 

[westernman]

My heater works just fine

Yup this is my town car

 

[Fire99]

BUT I also have an EV provided through work. Nothing special - a Hyundai Kona so the bottom end of the EV market but it has the larger 64kwh battery. There is no getting away from the fact that it is a great wee car, fun to drive and it has plenty of range that covers what I need to do 99% of the time without having to charge away from home, which currently costs around 9 pence per kwh on our current tariff. Nominal range is just shy of 300 miles in the summer (temperature matters) and I work on having a minimum safe 200 mile range in winter with heat/air con and driving normally i.e not going slowly to conserve battery power. There is literally nothing not to like about it and plenty of things to like. Not what I would describe as a Noddy car
.

I think this to some degree is the point. We debate EV's like it's something binary. Either Yep.. Perfect for everything or Nope.. Terrible for everything and should never be used for anything.

I have no doubt that EV's work for a number of people and if I was in your position I could probably see the benefit for me too. But... What I cannot see is it being a complete solution for all. Primarily that (and I can't see this changing any time soon) if you don't have a home charger and have to rely on public charging it becomes very expensive and for me practically a real pain. (To the degree of being a deal breaker). And there are vast numbers of people who will be in that position..

When it comes to boats. I think the challenges for anything beyond day boats/foiling fun boats (if that is even a type) far outweigh the practical benefits. I think the marine industry is a bit of a square hole for a round EV peg to fit comfortably in.. (Other than a bit of 'halfway house' tech with hybrids). As it stands I think if the likes of diesel became unavailable, the outcome would be an end of a lot of private boating rather than EV being able to pick up the baton.

 

[westernman]

I have no doubt that EV's work for a number of people and if I was in your position I could probably see the benefit for me too. But... What I cannot see is it being a complete solution for all. Primarily that (and I can't see this changing any time soon) if you don't have a home charger and have to rely on public charging it becomes very expensive and for me practically a real pain. (To the degree of being a deal breaker). And there are vast numbers of people who will be in that position..

Obviously you need a hybrid car.

 

[flaming]

I think this to some degree is the point. We debate EV's like it's something binary. Either Yep.. Perfect for everything or Nope.. Terrible for everything and should never be used for anything.

I have no doubt that EV's work for a number of people and if I was in your position I could probably see the benefit for me too. But... What I cannot see is it being a complete solution for all. Primarily that (and I can't see this changing any time soon) if you don't have a home charger and have to rely on public charging it becomes very expensive and for me practically a real pain. (To the degree of being a deal breaker). And there are vast numbers of people who will be in that position..

When it comes to boats. I think the challenges for anything beyond day boats/foiling fun boats (if that is even a type) far outweigh the practical benefits. I think the marine industry is a bit of a square hole for a round EV peg to fit comfortably in.. (Other than a bit of 'halfway house' tech with hybrids). As it stands I think if the likes of diesel became unavailable, the outcome would be an end of a lot of private boating rather than EV being able to pick up the baton.

The on street charging etc is a pain, and that will take a while to sort. But I do think that charging costs will start coming down fairly soon as competition between charging networks becomes more important than where the chargers are and if they're working...

I don't think that anyone is claiming that for every single use case, EV is currently, or even could be, better or more convenient. What I would say after 2.5 years living with an EV is that for the majority of uses it is though. And what I've never understood about the reaction to "that thread" is that it's no secret that ICE motoring is coming to an end. And here's a load of people who are effectively beta testing the current best replacement, and who's overall reaction is "This is ok, it has its plusses and minuses but overall there's no need to be scared of the end of petrol, we're still getting around the country just fine". And the reaction is not "ok, that's good, I don't want to change now but when I have to make the change my world won't end." It's attacks, telling us we're stupid sheep and all the rest. It's really very odd.

And yes, I would agree that in the absence of a liquid fuel replacement being ready when diesel becomes unavailable, the sort of boating that is now done in large mobos will not be able to be done that way. That doesn't mean that enjoying the sea in boats has to end, far from it, just it will be done differently.

 

[Lodestone]

For all the reasons I illustrate in #55 I cannot see how in practice diesel can become unavailable - unless politicians say that the populace cannot use what the government can (diesel for military). That makes the current route for decarbonisation authoritarian and a gross injustice visited upon us.

We still need economically viable oil and gas wells or grandpa doesn't get his hip joint or knee replacement and your electric car has cotton insulated wiring. The replacement - for - oil organic chemistry isn't there yet and probably decades away. In addition nobody has yet proposed what we do with the fuels fraction distilled from the crude/gas we still need to extract.

We are actually in a jam in terms of carbon dioxide/methane - the only panacea suggested so far is to vote ourselves back into the stone age, which is probably faster than the same effect from global warming.

These issues are intractable and I see no wisdom coming out of COP28. So before we chuck the baby out with the bath water we'd better come up with some ideas...yet there is political silence.

 

[kashurst]

Diesel from fossil fuels will ultimately become unavailable. We will simply burn it all.
Synthetic fuels from food crops and/or fischer trop style processes will create very expensive diesel.

 

[westernman]

Diesel from fossil fuels will ultimately become unavailable. We will simply burn it all.
Synthetic fuels from food crops and/or fischer trop style processes will create very expensive diesel.

Not really.

In November this year, rape seed oil cost around 962 euros/metric ton.
i.e. about 0.88 euros per litre.
Diesel was about 0.71 euros per litre (and of course a few months back was considerably more expensive).

Both are before tax costs of course.

When I filled up my Citroen CX on rape seed in the 1990's, its retail price was about 10% less than that of diesel. But of course that is largely down to less fuel tax on bio fuel.

So supplying rape seed to run our diesel engines on is not a problem.

We will just starve a few more people than we are currently starving in Africa instead of growing stuff for them to eat.
(starvation is of course because of politics, and is not an ecological problem).

 

[Seastoke]

Such a shame that you find difficulty in following a few paragraphs of cogent reasoning from someone who has professional knowledge of fuels and especially in a maritime environment.

Not every discussion can be reduced to Janet and John level, much as you might find it easier.

Why are you so supercilious With people.

 

[Fire99]

Obviously you need a hybrid car.

I think I need the car I have to be honest. It being diesel wouldn't be my favourite but it owes me nothing, is worth not a whole lot more than nothing, I can fix most of it and it's comfortable and economical enough for 300 mile non-stop journeys. And I can fit all my boat stuff in it. Hybrids on long journeys (which is what I mostly do) seem a bit pointless to me. You carry the weight of the electric gubbins and the electrification as far as I see it the electrification doesn't offer much benefit once you're out on the motorway.

 

[Ribtecer]

Diesel from fossil fuels will ultimately become unavailable. We will simply burn it all.
Synthetic fuels from food crops and/or fischer trop style processes will create very expensive diesel.

Not for a very long time we won't.

You're looking at it thru your Rose Tinted EV windscreen.