Do we now need an electric boat forum???

[Bouba]

Your dog has joined the other place where you keep flouncing from. I wonder if his bite is

Perhaps I will PM you my thoughts

 

[westernman]

I think that's the most likely outcome in terms of keeping the current fleet going. However the cost might be quite steep unless significant other user groups also have demand.

Other user groups are large passenger planes.
There are currently two fuel sources at the moment:-

1) bio fuels - which will run in almost unmodified jet engines. I.e. basically no change.

2) hydrogen
a) burnt in an engine derived from current jet engines. Small changes to engines, significant changes to fuel storage.
b) fuel cells driving electric powered propellers (this is more efficient). Fuel cells are still very new technology for powering planes.

2b seems to be the preferred long term solution

Hydrogen is attractive for planes because it is the fuel with the biggest bang per kilo weight.

I think we will have bio-diesel powered boats for some time before we see many full battery powered trawler yachts with 3000nm range or fuel cell boats running on hydrogen.

You need an awful lot of very heavy batteries (10-20 tons) to replace 1000 litres of diesel.

30 years ago I used to run my Citroen CX on bio-diesel.

 

[Momac]

at first glance yes, however for many things the calculation is complex and not based on just because it's old and could be revived/refurbed at a fraction of the cost of a new one.

That may be so , but most motor boats don't do a huge number of hours so don't necessarily consume a lot of fuel. So I would say the carbon footprint of making a new boat would take along while to break even.
Bear in mind the old boat which has been given up to buy the new boat is likely to remain in use with a new owner. Unlike cars which have a shorter service life boats do tend to live very long lives . So really it is better to keep an old boat going in good working order and not support the making of new boats but to support the reduction in the emissions of existing boats, This reduction in omissions can be achieved for example by using HVO providing the HVO is sustainably sourced. Unfortunately sustainable HVO seems not yet viable.

If any of us really were going to buy a new boat for environmental reasons there is no case for motor boats at all and we should all go sailing instead. So perhaps the purchase of new sailing boats should be supported while the purchase of new motorboats including fast electric boats might be prohibited.

Or better sill don't go sailing or boating at all but dig the garden over and grow vegetables and keep some chickens or maybe a pig.

 

[Fire99]

There's been all kinds of theories and ideas thrown around and I will repeat, I love the idea of a big motorboat that doesn't have a pair of smelly ol truck engines buried in its belly. BUT, can someone in simple terms tell me what benefit I'm going to gain by buying an electric boat? - (and "Look at me with my 'green' boat is not a reason)

All I see is boats are getting bigger and bigger and in some cases the size of small ferries and all the green tech is just a new banner to make money whilst its real-time world impact is nowt.

Someone tell me what's going to make my boat ownership experience better with an electric one.

 

[Lodestone]

Someone tell me what's going to make my boat ownership experience better with an electric one.

Probably a quieter life not having to listen to magical thinkers and their outrage at your not sharing their rapture....but then thats what they want - your unequivocal acceptance.

If the benefits are so profound then things will grow on their own. A certain propulsion choice becoming an accepted part of the energy landscape. Forcing it is bound to knock everything off axis to everyone's detriment.

 

[Fire99]

If all that excess power could be stored in millions of car batteries when generation is good and released again when it's bad (overnight, no wind etc) then it could actually mean we need LESS energy overall than now... I know at least 3 people who already have gone off-grid using their car battery as home storage and solar. They top up the car during the day and the car powers the house at night....

One of the biggest IFs in living memory. I have no doubt a few people living off-grid can do this but on any mass-level? A lovely spreadsheet theory but a reality of zero in any foreseeable timeframe.

 

[Fire99]

Probably a quieter life not having to listen to magical thinkers and their outrage at your not sharing their rapture....but then thats what they want - your unequivocal acceptance.

Haha... No truer word said in jest methinks..

 

[flaming]

There's been all kinds of theories and ideas thrown around and I will repeat, I love the idea of a big motorboat that doesn't have a pair of smelly ol truck engines buried in its belly. BUT, can someone in simple terms tell me what benefit I'm going to gain by buying an electric boat? - (and "Look at me with my 'green' boat is not a reason)

All I see is boats are getting bigger and bigger and in some cases the size of small ferries and all the green tech is just a new banner to make money whilst its real-time world impact is nowt.

Someone tell me what's going to make my boat ownership experience better with an electric one.

If you want a large boat, and want to go reasonable distances at planing speeds, then electric isn't going to be the answer in any reasonably foreseeable future.

The reality is that unless a viable alternative for fossil fuels gains acceptance by the powers that be, and comes to market in time to take over from Diesel before Diesel itself becomes hard to come by, then the renewable source that is available as motive power for boats is the same as it always was. Wind.

Sure, some smaller foiling boats are likely to be viable with an electric drive train, but in reality for anything of a decent size EV drive isn't going to cut it.

 

[Bouba]

At the moment...on land...useful very large electric trucks are rare...probably only the Tesla Semi...they are also expensive. When they become common place, the price should go down and more competition should appear from other truck manufacturers, new and old. Once this land transport has matured, then it will get marinized and then we might begin to get practical largish pleasure boats at a reasonable price/reasonable performance

 

[westernman]

At the moment...on land...useful very large electric trucks are rare...probably only the Tesla Semi...they are also expensive. When they become common place, the price should go down and more competition should appear from other truck manufacturers, new and old. Once this land transport has matured, then it will get marinized and then we might begin to get practical largish pleasure boats at a reasonable price/reasonable performance

There are a lot of large electric trucks.
In Shenzhen and Beijing.

 

[Bouba]

There are a lot of large electric trucks.
In Shenzhen and Beijing.

Yes, you can buy them in Europe and America....in truth they just give electric vehicles a bad name...a company will buy them with all the good intention on earth...find that they are only good for a couple of local deliveries a day...and then never wants to see an electric truck again. This rush to market can kill the whole project...Tesla took years to get an electric large truck on the road. As always, those that know what they are doing are hampered by truck manufacturers who think...what if I just put a battery and electric motor in this...
I watched an old episode of 5th Gear the other day...showing the brand new electric black cab...80 mile range !...some poor sod probably put his life savings into one and now will never buy electric again

 

[westernman]

Yes, you can buy them in Europe and America....in truth they just give electric vehicles a bad name...a company will buy them with all the good intention on earth...find that they are only good for a couple of local deliveries a day...and then never wants to see an electric truck again. This rush to market can kill the whole project...Tesla took years to get an electric large truck on the road. As always, those that know what they are doing are hampered by truck manufacturers who think...what if I just put a battery and electric motor in this...
I watched an old episode of 5th Gear the other day...showing the brand new electric black cab...80 mile range !...some poor sod probably put his life savings into one and now will never buy electric again

He should have bought a Shenzhen taxi cab - real world range about 500 kms with crazy Chinese driving.

London black cabs were always crazy expensive due to the weird rules and regulations concerning them.

 

[Bouba]

He should have bought a Shenzhen taxi cab - real world range about 500 kms with crazy Chinese driving.

London black cabs were always crazy expensive due to the weird rules and regulations concerning them.

Yes...a mini cab driver or Uber can drive a Tesla....in fact there are Tesla taxis everywhere (except London)....

 

[ontheplane]

One of the biggest IFs in living memory. I have no doubt a few people living off-grid can do this but on any mass-level? A lovely spreadsheet theory but a reality of zero in any foreseeable timeframe.

It will be in the next 3-5 years.

V2H and V2G are now becoming more common and will be ubiquitous in a few years, bi-directional chargers will become the standard and apps will update - you will have the option to “sell” leccy stored in your EV back to the grid and that will be up to you how (so when the price offered goes above a certain level for example) and then put it back when it goes cheap.

So If I have a 64KWh battery in my car I could tell it to sell up to 40kwh of that back to grid between 6pm and midnight as long as the price I get goes above 15p per KWh as I know I can refill it at 9p per KWh between midnight and 6 am - and in the summer, I wouldn’t even do that I’d let the solar top it up.

40kwh at 15p earns me £6 a day and 40 KWh costs me £3.60 so net gain is £2.40 a day or £876 per year.

However some tariffs are even better - so some will PAY EV drivers to take excess power in the grid - so have negative pricing in times of excess - so if I could sell 40kw at peak times for £6 and then be paid £1 to take 40kwh overnight then I’m earning £7 a day or £2500 a year and not paying a penny for my car fuel either.

Mass grid storage is hugely expensive - having thousands of smaller batteries to smooth out demand costs the grid nothing and allows them to make even more profits as they can reduce the amount of expensive generation and just use cheaper forms such as solar and wind.

I believe we will see this before 2030

 

[westernman]

Yes...a mini cab driver or Uber can drive a Tesla....in fact there are Tesla taxis everywhere (except London)....

There are no Tesla taxis in Shenzhen. They are all BYD.
Like this:-

 

[Fire99]

If you want a large boat, and want to go reasonable distances at planing speeds, then electric isn't going to be the answer in any reasonably foreseeable future.

The reality is that unless a viable alternative for fossil fuels gains acceptance by the powers that be, and comes to market in time to take over from Diesel before Diesel itself becomes hard to come by, then the renewable source that is available as motive power for boats is the same as it always was. Wind.

Sure, some smaller foiling boats are likely to be viable with an electric drive train, but in reality for anything of a decent size EV drive isn't going to cut it.

Yup.. I looked through the list of current 'top electric boats' but nothing (remotely practical for its size) had any kind of range. Certainly foiling boats with a very light weight an minimal water drag, for a bit of 'day fun', I can def see the market for that. Easy maintenance (theoretically) and probably fairly easy to plop in the water and take out again with minimal winterising etc..

But even a Semi-Displacement large cruiser 40ft+ is going to need (as we look at it today) much stronger range and replenishment ability than EV can (as it currently can be seen) offer. The best In the short / medium term would be hybrid propulsion so you can enter and leave a marina under electricity so any 'pollution' only occurs at sea. That's my stab in the dark over it..

 

[Ribtecer]

. "But each to their own"

You're not allowed to say things like that on these type threads.

How very dare you, you must think like the electric boys or you're part of the problem.

 

[Ribtecer]

I had an ev for 4 years, got rid earlier this year.

I got sick of paying 68p per kw at a super charger 150 kWh while only charging at 50 kWh.
The journey from the Northwest down to Dartmouth meant leaving the motorway to find a fast charger adding time to the journey.

I went for a diesel that can do the journey there and back without the need to re fuel. We still stop half way at the services, I think they have 2 number 50kwh chargers. We would have needed to stop and charge for an hour if one was available.

I won’t mention the depreciation

You're not going to fit in around here.

I can believe what you've just said.

They don't like honesty here, You're supposed to drone on about how great they are.

And provide loads and loads of anecdotal evidence as absolute proof

 

[Ribtecer]

Probably a quieter life not having to listen to magical thinkers and their outrage at your not sharing their rapture....but then thats what they want - your unequivocal acceptance.

If the benefits are so profound then things will grow on their own. A certain propulsion choice becoming an accepted part of the energy landscape. Forcing it is bound to knock everything off axis to everyone's detriment.

Beautifully put, and spot on.

 

[Bigplumbs]

On the more general subject of boats. I think, and I've said before, there is a certain amount of "head in sand" thinking about whether boating will continue to be viable in the same way as it is currently.

It's all well and good making the point that nothing works quite as well as Diesel for moving big boats. Point taken. But the question is far more about what are the people who have that sort of boat going to do when the Diesel is taken away? Right now at COP they're debating whether the phrase "Phasing out fossil fuels" goes in the final text. And our government are amongst those advocating for its inclusion.

But even then, if we consider that the current EU, and UK, date for the end of sale of ICE cars is 2035 (and there are strict targets for % of sales in the run up to then) you have to consider what happens to the current supply and distribution model of diesel in the years following. It is estimated that by 2035 half of all vehicles on UK roads will already be EVs. So demand for fuel in the UK will already have halved, maybe more as those with higher mileages are more likely to be early adopters, though counterbalanced by haulage. The current price of fuel depends a lot on economies of scale. With that sort of reduced demand it's quite probable that prices will have to rise as fixed costs are shared amongst lower volumes.

Then think about the business model. There is, I think, this naive sort of assumption that businesses who currently exist to vend fuel will continue to do this right up until the last drop is required, as some sort of public good. But they're not public services, they're private businesses. Any business owner worth their salt who's business is based on selling fuel is going to be looking for their exit strategy, or their diversification strategy. As soon as selling fuel is more hassle than it's worth they'll give it up. And that will drive more and more people, quite rapidly, out of ICE cars and into EVs as it becomes more convenient to run an EV than an ICE.

But that's cars. Nothing to do with boats, right? But think of it this way, the demand for fuel for private boats barely moves the needle in terms of the UK national demand. It won't justify refineries, road tankers, pump manufacturers etc etc that are all needed to get the fuel to come out of a nozzle and into your tank. Without marine demand being able to piggyback on to other demand, forget it, it won't be worth anyone's time.
In that respect boating is lucky that we basically use the same fuel as the last part of the road use that will transition - trucks. So it won't be soon, but it will happen. 2045 maybe? 10 years after the last ICE is sold, will there be enough demand for fuel to support leisure marine diesel? Who knows...

And then consider the other aspect. Over the last 100 years we have become used to ICE engines and their fumes. As they start to become less common on the roads, and people wake up to the fact that not having hundreds of engines pumping out pollutants in their town is quite nice actually, what will that mean for public (and more importantly local councillors) perception of ICE engines in boats, in what are often considered "beauty spots"?

Less is more