Dip the rope

[Floyd Raser]

I first heard the term "dipping the eye" when I was a 12-year old sea cadet, courtesy of our seamanship instructor, who had served in the RN during WW2.
It also appears in both my well-thumbed copies of "Seaman's Pocket Book" and "The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (Vol 1)" (both UK publications dating from 1964 and 1972 respectively).
Later, the bosun of TS Royalist gave us a very practical demonstration of "dipping the eye" and the problems caused if it isn't done (one of which was that you got called a ****ing **** by a very shouty beardy bloke), in situations where you can't just pull the boat in and slacken the line a little.
During my short spell in the merchant navy, the older hands taught us newbies, including - wait for it - "dipping the eye".
During my somewhat longer career in the RN, I personally saw the technique and heard the term used by all ranks and rates in more than a dozen different ships.

To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them was American.

Converse to what you say, I believe it's a question of technique, not language. The size of boats that most of us have, we yachties can get away without needing to do it: if there's a snakes' wedding on a shared cleat / bollard, we can heave in a bit of slack while we untangle it. Hence the knowledge and practice has fallen into disuse in smaller craft. However, once you get above the size where one man can hold the boat in (say about 15 tons), then"dipping the eye" becomes an essential part of seamanship.

Very interesting but I disagree in that I believe it to be a language thing, partly explained by your own post:
It's starting to sound like a professional sailor's term (which I guess we all suspected from the start) and has probably fallen out of use with the end of national service and the gradual reduction in number of Navy personnel over the years. Your shouty beardy bloke would probably be horrified to know that it's possible to learn a lot about sailing technique from Youtube! My point is that the Navy has less influence over sailing as more of us with spare cash can learn how to sail without it.

 

[Colvic Watson]

If someone asked me to dip the rope I'd have told him not to use silly made up phrases that no one else understands.

 

[PabloPicasso]

I would have
a) thanked him very much for troubling to take my bow warp and for securing it to the cleat.
b) thanked him for not entering into a needless discussion about a phrase which the combined and varied wisdom of this forum has simply never heard of and which does not describe the process desired by the OP. [Yes many know the technique but not the phrase used]

+1 indeed. Always be polite. Organising lines is not the responsibility of anyone but the skipper of the yacht tying up. If you're already tied up and someone puts their lines over yours, then tough. Get over it
c) thanked him for not organising the warps as if everyone in the vicinity was about to leave and I was not aboard my boat. That means I can simply take in the slack on the bow line for the moment, have a cup of tea and then sort out the warps how I want them.
d) said that I had noticed on the way in what a nice boat he had.
e) asked him to kindly not to go on a yachting forum and ask "what kind of **** uses the phrase 'dip the rope'?"

 

[SimonFa]

As someone else fairly new to all this I would have also been perplexed by what was being asked and also think I'd be quick witted enough to dip the loop in the water. Maybe the person taking the line knew exactly what was meant but was making a point?

Anyway, I seem to be missing something in my education. I normally have the boat end fixed and take the free end ashore without a loop, that way I can quickly secure the line at the right length and move on to the next one. Securing the boat quickly and efficiently was a key point in on my RYA courses. Then you can go round and set them as you desire when there's no risk of losing control of the boat.

By taking a loop ashore you have to then adjust the length at boat end which takes at least 2 people for each line and some time faffing about. With 2 people to work on lines I'd rather they did bow and stern lines at the same time.

 

[Daydream believer]

I must be the only bloke who takes his line under any others & back to the boat where i can adjust or cast off without getting on to the pontoon. I consider loops tied with a bowline a waste of effort as one cannot release under load so has to untie from the boat first then go ashore to release which inevitably means it is harder to do single handed

 

[thalassa]

I must be the only bloke who takes his line under any others & back to the boat where i can adjust or cast off without getting on to the pontoon. I consider loops tied with a bowline a waste of effort as one cannot release under load so has to untie from the boat first then go ashore to release which inevitably means it is harder to do single handed

+1

 

[dylanwinter]

I'd not heard the expression "dip the rope" before.

me neither - but then I am an untrained newbie and obviously a duffer

D

 

[southseaian]

I must be the only bloke who takes his line under any others & back to the boat where i can adjust or cast off without getting on to the pontoon. I consider loops tied with a bowline a waste of effort as one cannot release under load so has to untie from the boat first then go ashore to release which inevitably means it is harder to do single handed

Most people with any experience( (especially short/single handed) would arrange slip lines before leaving a berth (one or two at least) that are slipped from on board.
The only argument against not staying for some time (say over night) with doubled lines is that there could be increased wear on the rope.
Certainly round turn and two half hitches or fisherman's bends can be more easily undone under load, as can good old figure of eights round cleat. Just make sure the load is on the bottom of figure of eight not on top as often seen.

 

[chrishelen]

I seem to remember hearing ' put that loop up through that loop and onto that rusty thing' quite a lot in my sea going days.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I always tie up as quikly as possible with a loop over the cleat or figure of eight. Then the boat is secure and can be tidied up at leisure usually after a cuppa. I don't double my lines until I'm about to leave.
By the way, I don't see how you can easily do figure of eights with the loaded end on top.

Most people with any experience( (especially short/single handed) would arrange slip lines before leaving a berth (one or two at least) that are slipped from on board.
The only argument against not staying for some time (say over night) with doubled lines is that there could be increased wear on the rope.
Certainly round turn and two half hitches or fisherman's bends can be more easily undone under load, as can good old figure of eights round cleat. Just make sure the load is on the bottom of figure of eight not on top as often seen.

 

[VO5]

I must be the only bloke who takes his line under any others & back to the boat where i can adjust or cast off without getting on to the pontoon. I consider loops tied with a bowline a waste of effort as one cannot release under load so has to untie from the boat first then go ashore to release which inevitably means it is harder to do single handed

You are not alone. It is just plain common sense.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Thanks Boz and Prv for the info.

... Just make sure the load is on the bottom of figure of eight not on top as often seen.

I'm lost again. How do I do that?

 

[prv]

Just make sure the load is on the bottom of figure of eight not on top as often seen.

I'm lost again. How do I do that?

Don't worry, you're almost certainly doing it right already. I have seen people put a rope on a cleat as Ian describes, but really not at all often, it's not the way most people would naturally do it.

To describe what he means, imagine you got off the boat with the end of the warp in your hand, other end made fast on board. You put the very end around the cleat, but this leaves you with lots of slack line in between the cleat and the boat. So to take up that slack, you make more figure-8s on the cleat, using up the middle of the warp and pulling the boat in towards you. When you've finished, the line runs from the boat to the top of the stack of figure-8s on the cleat, not around the cleat itself.

The boat is securely moored, but when you come to leave the next morning, the wind is blowing it away from the shore so it's pulling hard on the lines. You can't release it from the cleat because you can't get any slack to undo the figure-8s, and the free end of the warp is at the bottom of the stack with the loaded-up turns on top pinning it in place.

If you also can't release the end on the boat (perhaps you cow-hitched a spliced eye through the base of a cleat, that's how we rig ours for initial arrival) then you're going to need to run out a second line and take the tension on it with a winch, to relieve the load on the wrongly-made-up one. That's assuming you have some spare warps, of course, unlike the numpty I mentioned earlier in the thread, who appeared to only own two. His bow line to me was a six-foot length of paracord, and the springs I had to lend him...

Pete

 

[RichardS]

To describe what he means, imagine you got off the boat with the end of the warp in your hand, other end made fast on board. You put the very end around the cleat, but this leaves you with lots of slack line in between the cleat and the boat. So to take up that slack, you make more figure-8s on the cleat, using up the middle of the warp and pulling the boat in towards you. When you've finished, the line runs from the boat to the top of the stack of figure-8s on the cleat, not around the cleat itself.

Good grief. With the long lines I seem to have I would end up with something the size of Ayers Rock on the pontoon if I did that.

Richard

 

[prv]

Good grief. With the long lines I seem to have I would end up with something the size of Ayers Rock on the pontoon if I did that.

People don't necessarily start right at the end when they use a cleat backwards like that, but it was easier to explain clearly that way

It's a bit easier to get it wrong with an anchor line (or, worse, an anchor chain), but I really don't think it's common with mooring lines.

Pete

 

[lampshuk]

The first time I ever heard the expression "Dip the eye!" was when I was 13 years old and my Dad was screaming it at me when we came alongside in an old harbour somewhere. I had no clue at all what he was talking about, since he had never explained it. That humiliating experience has burned the practice into my soul, but I can never bring myself to ask anyone else to do it, since it's completely non-intuitive.

Which is another point: how does the geometry work? Why does the mere fact of passing the eye through from underneath, then putting it on top, avoid blocking the existing loop on the cleat?

So, while I have some sympathy for the OP's expectation that a YM instructor ought to have figured out what he was talking about, rather than sarcastically dangling the rope in the water, he has rubbed the top off some emotional scars for me and I think he got off lightly.

Any programmer knows that if you "use before define" then you deserve all the unpredictable behaviour that you get.

 

[VicS]

Which is another point: how does the geometry work? Why does the mere fact of passing the eye through from underneath, then putting it on top, avoid blocking the existing loop on the cleat?

You pass it up through the loop that's there. Over the cleat then wriggle it below the existing one ( or lift the existing one so that its on top)

In a way its a pointless exercise if you'd been there first and the other bloke arrived after you and did the dipping business you'd end up the same as you would if you just dropped yours on top.

Whether on not dipping make sense depends entirely on who is going to leave first ! Otherwise its just etiquette like flag flying.

I was taught that when an open base cleat is to be shared you should tie a bowline through it, just like you would to a hoop. Nobody traps anybody else then. Untie your bowline and go ( or re-rig as a slip line then go)

 

[Shakemeister]

Aaaah, the wonders of centuries of nautical terminology.

If someone asked me to 'dip the rope', I might have been tempted to dip it in the water out of sheer devilment. 'Dipping the eye', however means something completely different in nautical jargon.

It's no point saying 'I've never heard of this archaic term' when it's still a widely used term and practice among mariners.

There's lots of ropes on a saily boat. That's why they have all different names depending on their function. That's why we don't refer to ropes, we refer to sheets, halliards, warps, outhauls, shrouds, reefing lines etc.

I also agree that tying up a boat alongside with bowlines on to a ring a cleat is a bad move because a bowline is difficult to release under pressure. Round turn and two half hitches is much better, it can be released under pressure.

Also your lines should be inboard not outboard, as pointed out by others.

A simple bowline / eye when coming alongside to get secure is one thing, but as other posters have said, sort it out once you've had your cup of tea. If nothing else it makes it easier to rig your lines as slips shortly before you leave. All IMHO.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Which is another point: how does the geometry work? Why does the mere fact of passing the eye through from underneath, then putting it on top, avoid blocking the existing loop on the cleat?

It works because if done properly, i.e., passing the eye up through the one that's already there before putting it over the bollard or cleat, each eye can be released by simply being lifted over the fixture on the pontoon (first eye) and, if necessary, down through the other eyes (second eye onwards). If the eyes are just put one over the other they can still be released BUT the lower ones would need to be squeezed between every eye that is above them and the bollard;not easy if there is a load on them.
If you look at the photo that was posted as a question you will see how both the blue line and the one that is flecked can both be released without disturbing the other one... were it not for the line that is tied with a bowline trapping them beneath it.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

You pass it up through the loop that's there. Over the cleat then wriggle it below the existing one ( or lift the existing one so that its on top)

No you don't! You pass it up through the eyes that are already there, over the top of the fixture BUT you leave yours on top.

Done this way, each eye can be lifted over the top and released, independently of the other eyes, without the need of squeezing it between the other eyes and the bollard (or cleat).