Dinghy to shore drowning

[gunman]

To those who advocate a handheld VHF or a waterproof mobile phone - is there any research that shows how strong a signal (if any) they propagate when soaking wet and 5cm above sea level?

Better still, is there evidence that if you were carrying these items that your chance of survival is decreased? As I stated before, I'd prefer any chance to no chance!

BTW, I dont carry these items in the tender as I dont own them, I do own a LJ so I wear it!

 

[gunman]

Are you not worried about theft of your tender, outboard and or oars?

 

[Talulah]

Are you not worried about theft of your tender, outboard and or oars?

Yes. Aren't you?

 

[gunman]

Yes. Aren't you?

Not really If I'm honest but that's beside the point. You say you don't take your LJ on the tender as it could get stolen ashore, I assume this is on trips ashore rather than going home then or are you a liveaboard?

Thing is a LJ can be taken with you easier than your tender and outboard which would be more of a loss would they not? How would you return to your boat without a tender?

I can see how having to take a LF with you on a walk etc may be an inconvenience, personally it's something I'd probably work around!

 

[Talulah]

Not really If I'm honest but that's beside the point. You say you don't take your LJ on the tender as it could get stolen ashore, I assume this is on trips ashore rather than going home then or are you a liveaboard?

Thing is a LJ can be taken with you easier than your tender and outboard which would be more of a loss would they not? How would you return to your boat without a tender?

I can see how having to take a LF with you on a walk etc may be an inconvenience, personally it's something I'd probably work around!

If I consider a trip ashore warrants a life jacket I'll wear it. If it doesn't I won't as other factors (theft/inconvenience) come in to play. Hence I do not automatically wear a LJ but balance the needs/risks/inconvenience/theft etc. The inablity to return to the boat because the tender/oars/outboard were stolen etc is a real worry and often means the trip ashore is kept to a minimum or the dinghy etc are kept within sight. i.e Barbecue on the beach but dinghy visible. I'm sure many people on here are very relieved to find their dinghy still there upon their return.
The LJ is of course far more nickable than the dinghy etc and so is open to theft from a wider audience. There are some locations were I would never leave the dinghy unattended.
As the boat is normally kept in a marina the dinghy is seldom used. For people who use their dinghy every weekend I can imagine other factors come into play. Complaceny maybe. And so when a borderline situation arises where perhaps they should have worn a lifejacket continue not to do do because they 'never do'.

 

[webcraft]

I can see how having to take a LF with you on a walk etc may be an inconvenience, personally it's something I'd probably work around!

A waterproof drybag style rucksack is a solution if you are worried about leaving your lj in the dinghy. It's a poor excuse.

Fireball, your attitude towards childrens' safety is nonsensical. They can make their own decisions when they are old enough. In the meantime, they will take their lead from their parents and from adults around them. If you don't wear a lifejacket and you don't make them wear one - or give them a genuine choice - then you are not educating them, you are just passing on your own attitude to safety on the water.

- W

 

[fireball]

Amazed and shocked I am. A lot of this sounds like the rubbish that comes from young drivers who speed on the roads, "Its OK because I am such a great driver, nothing bad would ever happen to me"

Does it? So, going in a tender/boat without a lifejacket is akin to speeding on the road ... right ...

Many who don't wear a LJ on a tender say it is because they have evaluated the risk, therefore identifying there is a risk (even a small one).

Er - there is a risk in getting out of bed in the morning ... there is a risk in walking on the pavement ... there is a risk in catching a bus ... there is a risk in driving your car ... there is a risk in life.
It's all down to degrees of risk - what's the chance of being run down whilst walking on the pavement - usually negligible - so what do you do about it? Probably nothing ..
But in your world it seems that we should be wearing body armour - just in case ... I don't own body armour - but I do own a cycling helmet - perhaps I should wear that?

You take your LJ off in your main boat to climb into your tender, all because you think there is less risk???
It's not like you would have to go out of your way or buy extra equipment, you already own it and are quite likely already wearing it. I can see no reason to do this other than ego, sorry! Most acknowledge they are taking a calculated risk, why when you don't have to or can take simple steps to minimise it?

I rarely wear the LJ onboard. So to wear it in the tender would require getting and putting it on - then storing it at home - and remembering to take it back - of course it's possible - it's not even that difficult - but then wearing a cycling helmet whilst walking down the street isn't difficult, but I don't do that either ... nor do most ppl ... I wonder why? Perhaps it's because the risk (and there is always a risk) is negligible ..

Perhaps I should take the HH VHF and put the mobile in a waterproof pouch - don't forget to lash everything down ... ultimately what am I going to do if the tender sinks? Should I take the liferaft? Getting silly ... yes - exactly ... where do you draw the line?

 

[webcraft]

I rarely wear the LJ onboard. So to wear it in the tender would require getting and putting it on - then storing it at home - and remembering to take it back - of course it's possible - it's not even that difficult - but then wearing a cycling helmet whilst walking down the street isn't difficult, but I don't do that either ... nor do most ppl ... I wonder why? Perhaps it's because the risk (and there is always a risk) is negligible ..

Perhaps I should take the HH VHF and put the mobile in a waterproof pouch - don't forget to lash everything down ... ultimately what am I going to do if the tender sinks? Should I take the liferaft? Getting silly ... yes - exactly ... where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at discussing safety with someone who puts up such ludicrous non-arguments as you. Wearing a lifejacket in the tender is a very basic safety precaution that 90% of yachtsmen take without thinking about it, and it causes the bare minimum of inconvenience for most.

Do what you want, hope you never need a lifejacket. But don't try and impose your daft macho views on others, especially children.

- W

 

[fireball]

Fireball, your attitude towards childrens' safety is nonsensical. They can make their own decisions when they are old enough. In the meantime, they will take their lead from their parents and from adults around them. If you don't wear a lifejacket and you don't make them wear one - or give them a genuine choice - then you are not educating them, you are just passing on your own attitude to safety on the water.

Er ... do you understand about education?

Children will start forming their own opinions from an early age. If they're old enough to helm then they're old enough to understand why they should wear a buoyancy aid or lifejacket. I have taken kids onboard and ensured they are wearing lifejackets - as well as let them remove them - but each time it has been a concious decision with some reasoning behind it - this has been listened to and understood by the child.

I believe my attitude to safety on the water is pretty good.... can you tell me why it isn't? What decisions have I made that have endangered life?

Quick question - say you've gone ashore in your tender and whilst ashore something happens to your lifejackets to make them inoperable - do you stay ashore until you can get replacements or do you assess the conditions and if reasonable, make a careful return to your vessel?

 

[Talulah]

I draw the line at discussing safety with someone who puts up such ludicrous non-arguments as you. Wearing a lifejacket in the tender is a very basic safety precaution that 90% of yachtsmen take without thinking about it, and it causes the bare minimum of inconvenience for most.

Do what you want, hope you never need a lifejacket. But don't try and impose your daft macho views on others, especially children.

- W

Careful. Where does the 90% come from?
In our days of fostering the kids always wore LJ's on deck and in the tender. I wore the LJ as well so as not to send a message that it was ok to not wear a LJ just because you were an adult.

 

[fireball]

I draw the line at discussing safety with someone who puts up such ludicrous non-arguments as you. Wearing a lifejacket in the tender is a very basic safety precaution that 90% of yachtsmen take without thinking about it, and it causes the bare minimum of inconvenience for most.

Ludicrous non-arguments?! You say I'm a danger and that I should wear a lifejacket because of the risk - but you will not and cannot quantify those risks. Please - take a minute to assess the risks and then act accordingly - if that means wearing a lifejacket then fine - I have no problem with that.

Do what you want, hope you never need a lifejacket. But don't try and impose your daft macho views on others, especially children.

I will continue to "do what I want" for as long as I am able - that will include wearing lifejackets were I believe it warrants it.
As for my "daft macho views" - they are not macho - they are carefully considered taking into account many years of experience and reasonable fitness level.

Oh - and please can you provide a source for the "90% of yachtsmen" wear lifejackets in the tender ...
Is that weighted to the number of trips each one does too? Oh - and is that UK only statistics or are you basing it on Northern Eurpoean waters, the whole of Europe or even the world?

Finally Please stop trying to impose your risk adverse views on everybody else.

 

[Talulah]

Finally Please stop trying to impose your risk adverse views on everybody else.

I wonder how much of these views are shaped by personal experiences?
For example and I don't mean to be personal here: Webcraft with an Albin Vega 27ft LOA will be used to a boat that heals a lot as people move around.
If I was on Webcrafts boat I would probably wear a LJ all the time on deck and when getting on/off into a dinghy.
Fireball has a Bavaria 37. If I was on Fireballs boat I would not be wearing a LJ all the time. Far from it. But maybe I would wear an LJ getting on and off a dinghy.
Equally, on my 39ft boat, I am very familiar with how stable it is and would wear an LJ even less often than I would on Fireballs boat.
So on Webcrafts boat I would be wearing an LJ for any and every activity but on Fireballs only when I considered necessary but airing on the side of caution while on Talulah, less so.

You can extend this discusion to moving around on a ferry. Getting on/off water Taxis etc. (Some people do take there LJ on the Water Taxi.)

 

[GrahamM376]

Wearing a lifejacket in the tender is a very basic safety precaution that 90% of yachtsmen take without thinking about it, and it causes the bare minimum of inconvenience for most.

I don't know where you sail but as a rough estimate, less than 5% wear life jackets around here although we have to carry them in tenders (but not wear them) by law. Most of those wearing them are children and dogs.

 

[fireball]

Equally - if I were sailing in Scottish waters (which I understand can be significantly colder than down here!) then I may be more inclined to wear a LJ.
I have no particular aversion to wearing a LJ - but I hate the "I've decided it's best so everyone must do it" ...
They're as bad as the knee-jerk laws to "prevent this from ever happening again" ...

 

[fireball]

I don't know where you sail but as a rough estimate, less than 5% wear life jackets around here although we have to carry them in tenders (but not wear them) by law. Most of those wearing them are children and dogs.

50% of my crew always wear their lifejacket in the tender. I think it's sensible that they do and they are welcome to do so therefore we will check that they've got it on before boarding.

 

[Talulah]

Equally - if I were sailing in Scottish waters (which I understand can be significantly colder than down here!) then I may be more inclined to wear a LJ.
I have no particular aversion to wearing a LJ - but I hate the "I've decided it's best so everyone must do it" ...
They're as bad as the knee-jerk laws to "prevent this from ever happening again" ...

And of course this is extended to people who would never cross the Channel without a Liferaft, or never without radar, or never without a GPS, Compass etc

How did we survive the seventies? (Never wore LJ's because they were mouldy and horrible, discarded pass ons from the School Sailing Club.)

 

[DogWatch]

I wonder how much of these views are shaped by personal experiences?
For example and I don't mean to be personal here: Webcraft with an Albin Vega 27ft LOA will be used to a boat that heals a lot as people move around.
If I was on Webcrafts boat I would probably wear a LJ all the time on deck and when getting on/off into a dinghy.
Fireball has a Bavaria 37. If I was on Fireballs boat I would not be wearing a LJ all the time. Far from it. But maybe I would wear an LJ getting on and off a dinghy.
Equally, on my 39ft boat, I am very familiar with how stable it is and would wear an LJ even less often than I would on Fireballs boat.
So on Webcrafts boat I would be wearing an LJ for any and every activity but on Fireballs only when I considered necessary but airing on the side of caution while on Talulah, less so.

You can extend this discusion to moving around on a ferry. Getting on/off water Taxis etc. (Some people do take there LJ on the Water Taxi.)

This thread is about taking sensible precautions in a dinghy, what does the size of your boat have to do with it? Are you willy waving to beat WB, I hope not.

Like WB I have saved a man from the river after his dinghy sank under him. Luckily I heard his shouts from the boatyard and was able to race over and pluck him out of the water, there go but for the grace...

He was as I recall wearing a buoyancy aid and before he explained his situation I had thought he was a canoeist as they were the only ones back then who would be seen in such gay safety kit. He didn't however berate me for not allowing Darwinism to rule, in fact, he was rather scared and rather grateful someone heard him, the current was enough to prevent him getting to the shore only 50yds from his position.

And to Fireball, if the weather changes while you are ashore how do you make an informed decision based on conditions if your jackets are on board the boat? I also find carting life jackets around the shops a PITA, but a simple backpack helps. Not wearing something you can and already own because there is a small chance it may not help save you as no one will see you etc. is a bit mad, as the longer you survive the more chance of attracting attention no?

 

[Talulah]

This thread is about taking sensible precautions in a dinghy, what does the size of your boat have to do with it? Are you willy waving to beat WB, I hope not.

Because it is getting on and off the dinghy where accidents happen. If you are getting on/off a stable platform there is inherently less risk.

And to Fireball, if the weather changes while you are ashore how do you make an informed decision based on conditions if your jackets are on board the boat?

Part of the initial risk assessment maybe?

 

[Talulah]

Oh no!

 

[DogWatch]

Because it is getting on and off the dinghy where accidents happen. If you are getting on/off a stable platform there is inherently less risk.



Part of the initial risk assessment maybe?

I believe I addressed the question to fireball, are you his PR ?