brians
Well-Known Member
Are marine and road diesel identical except for colour? Can you mix the two without problems?
Diesel
- Thread starter brians
- Start date
pandos
Well-Known Member
Both the same in use.
Colours are for tax purposes.
Colours are for tax purposes.
Plum
Well-Known Member
Yes and yes
yoda
Well-Known Member
Yes but some marinas sell FAME free red diesel (no bio diesel), others sell road diesel with red dye. Diesel with FAME has a greater chance of causing diesel bug when kept in the tank for an extended period.
jdc
Well-Known Member
This is oft stated as if it were a fact, but has anyone actual evidence of this? Genuinely, I want to know!
Personally, so far I doubt it. After all, It should easy enough to prove: is the incidence of 'diesel bug' - itself an ill-defined and probably superstitious term - much more prevalent in continental Europe than in the UK? The sample size would be sufficient to tell us; perhaps 100 million yacht-years (I just invented an equally ill-defined neologism) is surely a big enough sample.
I've done a statistically insignificant experiment, but it showed the opposite. 2 tanks, of the same age and volume, one which had always had white FAME containing road diesel (it was kept in Greece) and the other always red from uk marinas. The red one was coated with black sticky deposits, the white one was completely clean. Neither showed evidence of microbial activity, ie the black goo was chemical.
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Refueler
Well-Known Member
Oh Dear .... here we go with the 'facts' again ....
Marine Diesel Oil can be had in various forms ... from high sulphur content to Ultra Low as per 'road diesel'. But the higher levels are usually only for ships / tugs / large fishing boats etc - basically commercial.
Gas Oil to give it the proper name covers from MGO (Marine Gas Oil) ... MDO (Marine Diesel Oil) through Regular medium level Sulphur Gas Oil to Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel.
MGO is usually dark brown and of higher density / sulphur levels and unsuitable for small to medium engines. Its used in ships engines for manoeuvring / passage in restricted waters.
MDO is a better grade of Gasoil than MGO and can be required instead of the higher Sulphur MGO to be used on ships. It powers their generators / Inert Gas systems etc.
RGO or Gasoil base is often of about 0.2% Sulphur and was previously the base for Agricultural / Industrial 'Diesel' or Gas Oil as it should be called. Over time - the Sulphur levels have been reduced and usually it is about 0.05 to 0.1% from refinerys. It provides base product ready for Sulphur washing - or bulk product in blending low sulphur fuels.
Road Diesel or White Diesel as its commonly termed is the lowest level of Sulphur to conform to legislation and vehicle use. It is also usually coloured for other use where Tax Relief is applied.
For easier application for yacht services - many have swapped out from Red Diesel (basically you guys would know it as reduced tax Agricultural fuel) and gone for Road Diesel. BUT but because UK still has allowance for Red use on boats - note :
Diesel fuel in the UK is commonly divided into two main categories – red diesel and white diesel. Red diesel is a lower taxed fuel used primarily for agricultural and industrial purposes, while white diesel, also known as road diesel, is used in vehicles and boats and is taxed at a higher rate. The main difference between red and white diesel is the level of duty applied to each. Previously it was normal for Red Diesel to have higher Sulphur levels.
In the 2021 Budget, the Chancellor Rishi Sunak, announced that boats will still be able to use red diesel to propel their vessels and that the UK government would remove the subsidy on red diesel from April 2022, although boaters would still be able to use subsidised fuel for heating onboard.
Colour is usually related to the market the fuel is intended for ... and can be Green, Red, Blue or whatever that state calls for.
Last : Can you mix the two ... Red and White ? Yes of course you can.
Marine Diesel Oil can be had in various forms ... from high sulphur content to Ultra Low as per 'road diesel'. But the higher levels are usually only for ships / tugs / large fishing boats etc - basically commercial.
Gas Oil to give it the proper name covers from MGO (Marine Gas Oil) ... MDO (Marine Diesel Oil) through Regular medium level Sulphur Gas Oil to Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel.
MGO is usually dark brown and of higher density / sulphur levels and unsuitable for small to medium engines. Its used in ships engines for manoeuvring / passage in restricted waters.
MDO is a better grade of Gasoil than MGO and can be required instead of the higher Sulphur MGO to be used on ships. It powers their generators / Inert Gas systems etc.
RGO or Gasoil base is often of about 0.2% Sulphur and was previously the base for Agricultural / Industrial 'Diesel' or Gas Oil as it should be called. Over time - the Sulphur levels have been reduced and usually it is about 0.05 to 0.1% from refinerys. It provides base product ready for Sulphur washing - or bulk product in blending low sulphur fuels.
Road Diesel or White Diesel as its commonly termed is the lowest level of Sulphur to conform to legislation and vehicle use. It is also usually coloured for other use where Tax Relief is applied.
For easier application for yacht services - many have swapped out from Red Diesel (basically you guys would know it as reduced tax Agricultural fuel) and gone for Road Diesel. BUT but because UK still has allowance for Red use on boats - note :
Diesel fuel in the UK is commonly divided into two main categories – red diesel and white diesel. Red diesel is a lower taxed fuel used primarily for agricultural and industrial purposes, while white diesel, also known as road diesel, is used in vehicles and boats and is taxed at a higher rate. The main difference between red and white diesel is the level of duty applied to each. Previously it was normal for Red Diesel to have higher Sulphur levels.
In the 2021 Budget, the Chancellor Rishi Sunak, announced that boats will still be able to use red diesel to propel their vessels and that the UK government would remove the subsidy on red diesel from April 2022, although boaters would still be able to use subsidised fuel for heating onboard.
Colour is usually related to the market the fuel is intended for ... and can be Green, Red, Blue or whatever that state calls for.
Last : Can you mix the two ... Red and White ? Yes of course you can.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Sorry but that is a myth. The basis that created that - was that FAME absorbs water ..... nothing else.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
It’s not a myth that some marinas sell FAME free diesel as many are on record stating the fact.
Fimacca
Well-Known Member
Feels a bit like which is the best anchor thread !
Refueler
Well-Known Member
1. I was posting on the myth about FAME increasing BUG .....
2. Do I have to keep repeating that FAME / BIO is only required to be declared if 5% or more ... just because some Marina guy says it is means ZILCH !
Refueler
Well-Known Member
TBH - I'm sick of trying to pass on industry info ... they can believe it or not ... not my problem. I've been in the Fuel game so long - you'd probably get High Octane from my veins instead of blood.
Today - I am dealing with 90,000 tonnes of 95 that another blender got offspec. 45,000 tonnes of ULSD (ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) for on-sale to receivers ... 35,000 tonnes of Jet A1 for Commercial use ... as well as 3 ships with 100,000 tonnes of Crude each ... 2 ships with 90,000 tonnes of 350 Fuel Oil each ...
And that's just on-water ...
Fimacca
Well-Known Member
I feel your pain - I spent a long time in that game - I still have a load of samples of jet I need to dispose of from refineries and tankers arguing ........
Refueler
Well-Known Member
If you have a diesel car ... you can add to the diesel ... especially for winter ... breaks the parafins down .. anything up to about 10% ... but 5% is a good mark.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
That was ambiguous
I wasn't commenting on whether FAME free was required, simply correcting the information presented since marinas in the UK absolutely do supply FAME free. Repeat what you like, just be more clear with what you're saying and people won't need to correct it.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
An a open forum if knowledgeable people consider any poster is giving incorrect information on a subject they need to be corrected, and it should be done in a non-insulting, intimidating and arrogant way.
We are all here to help each other and also to learn facts and if posters are not allowed to express their opinion and correct misconceptions and mis information.
If posters cannot respect (not necessarily agree) others opinion and insulted, then this is against forum rules and should be banned.
Just my opinion
Refueler
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough ..
How much clearer can it be ?? ... if there is any remote chance a supplier gives a document to receiver (marina) stating Fame Free - then fine ... but that would be unusual as fuel distribution is not as segregated as Brands would like you to think. Just for the record Lab testing for FAME content is not accurate below 1% ... depending on lab tests used even 5% can be questionable.
I can organise as much as ACTUAL Fame Free diesel as you like ... but that does not mean it reaches retail ... because its base product to distribution terminals who then blend / modify depending on market.
What is annoying - is that much of the comments about Bug growth because of Fame ... etc is from those who have commercial interest to promote services ... this gets read and accepted by public and we see the result.
[70521]
Well-Known Member
I'd love to see any evidence of that.
Water ingress through filler caps with dodgy O rings are far more likely to be the cause.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I have been buying road diesel (there is no other type) in Greece for more than 15 years. Almost all of it delivered by mini-tankers that by their size have frequent turnover. I have yet to experience any diesel bug despite several extended periods of no use (Covid, and various health issues). I have never dosed the tank with any anti-bug chemicals but do ensure that water is totally excluded.
PaulRainbow
Well-Known Member
Couple of minor points. A form of "marine" diesel is available to leisure users from marinas where the boats are sea going, not inland waterways. This has low Fame and higher sulphur than road diesel.
Red can no longer be used for industrial purposes, all plant and machinery is now on white.
yoda
Well-Known Member
Most of the real studies have been in the agricultural sector. Info such as that shown at the link below:
Increased FAME Content in Fuel Causing Nationwide Concern - Oilfast
The impact of water being absorbed is that the conditions then exist for the growth of bug.
I agree that diesel containing FAME that is used relatively quickly is unlikely to be a problem however yachts often don't fall in that category.
I will keep buying FAME free diesel to avoid potential problems.
