Deck chute?

[pmnfernando]

Thanks for the reply

Ive been thinking about making one also but i dont like the fact that, we end up with a bag that is basically a horizontal sock. which takes space, creates trip hazards and its subject to fouling.
maybe im wrong but i believe that to vacuum the spinnaker into those round "standard" sail bag (whatever that is, but something with an OD around 500-600mm by 600 mm deep) one needs to make the sail fold and crush on itself and they way for that is by crimping several eyelets at the geometric centreline of the spinnaker and thread a light line which would make it crush resembling a concertina and pulling it inside the bag, maybe even 3 lines which would work together to create a reverse telescoping motion towards the bag

 

[jamie N]

That's interesting.
With mine, I undo the carabina's and roll the whole item around the PVC frame, which takes it down to the size of a briefcase, and is easily stowed. The sheets and halyard remain by the forestay, I untie the downhaul and it remains by the cockpit ready to reattach.
Would it be the case that with multiple eyes in the spinnaker it'd increase the weight of the sail, whilst creating extra places of 'high' stress with possible rip points therein?

 

[pmnfernando]

it will increase the weight for sure.
it would have to be lightest possible lines to minimize the weight. 3mm braided polyester weighs in at 0.5 pounds/100 feet. not so bad. not easy on the hands but it could be spliced into a heavier gauge line for the lenght one needs to handle, keeping it lighter where it should be: above deck height.
having a sailmaker reinforce the eyelet areas slightly to better spread the load would help also

 

[Laser310]

I raced in the Gunboat regattas for a few seasons.
a few of the boats - 60 to 70ft - experimented with deck socks.
a problem on these large cats is that when you douse the spinnaker on to the trampoline, it isn't really out of the wind, as it is on a monohull when it gets doused to somewhere below deck.
The problem was with runners - the A2 - as reaching chutes like the A3 are usually on a furler.
Most boats originally used a regular sock, but the sock douses were very inconsistent - some would take 20 seconds or so.., and then one would take a minute or more. The problem was: how far out from the mark do you call for the douse?
If you are a minute from the mark (with a spinnaker) and you call for the douse, and it takes 20 seconds.., that 40 seconds becomes a couple of minutes with just a jib. On the other hand it's kind of a disaster sailing past the mark getting the spinnaker down.
A compromise was to not sail to the mark, but rather to sail to a position that was a fast jib reach to the mark, and take down early...
anyway the deck sock with a takedown line was adopted on some boats to get a cleaner, more consistent, douse.

 

[pmnfernando]

I raced in the Gunboat regattas for a few seasons.
a few of the boats - 60 to 70ft - experimented with deck socks.
a problem on these large cats is that when you douse the spinnaker on to the trampoline, it isn't really out of the wind, as it is on a monohull when it gets doused to somewhere below deck.
The problem was with runners - the A2 - as reaching chutes like the A3 are usually on a furler.
Most boats originally used a regular sock, but the sock douses were very inconsistent - some would take 20 seconds or so.., and then one would take a minute or more. The problem was: how far out from the mark do you call for the douse?
If you are a minute from the mark (with a spinnaker) and you call for the douse, and it takes 20 seconds.., that 40 seconds becomes a couple of minutes with just a jib. On the other hand it's kind of a disaster sailing past the mark getting the spinnaker down.
A compromise was to not sail to the mark, but rather to sail to a position that was a fast jib reach to the mark, and take down early...
anyway the deck sock with a takedown line was adopted on some boats to get a cleaner, more consistent, douse.

no doubt that for racing seconds mean everything. and for cruising too i would say, as things might get a bit hairy in such a short notice also

 

[TLouth7]

Thanks for the reply

Ive been thinking about making one also but i dont like the fact that, we end up with a bag that is basically a horizontal sock. which takes space, creates trip hazards and its subject to fouling.
maybe im wrong but i believe that to vacuum the spinnaker into those round "standard" sail bag (whatever that is, but something with an OD around 500-600mm by 600 mm deep) one needs to make the sail fold and crush on itself and they way for that is by crimping several eyelets at the geometric centreline of the spinnaker and thread a light line which would make it crush resembling a concertina and pulling it inside the bag, maybe even 3 lines which would work together to create a reverse telescoping motion towards the bag

It is not uncommon for dinghies with large assymmetrics to have two retrieval points with the line passing through the lower and secured to the upper as you describe. Fundamentally this approach cannot result in a sock which is shorter than half the maximum width of the sail, unless you do something very complicated with the line. On my Laser 3000 we found that it was a problem having two bundles of sailcloth arrive at the mouth of the sock simultaneously on the drop, so the trick was to secure the end of the retrieval line with a large bowline; this offsets the bundles of sail but does result in slightly more length of sock needed. You could achieve the same effect with a bobble or stopper knot a couple of feet down the line which cannot fit through the lower eye.

 

[pmnfernando]

It is not uncommon for dinghies with large assymmetrics to have two retrieval points with the line passing through the lower and secured to the upper as you describe. Fundamentally this approach cannot result in a sock which is shorter than half the maximum width of the sail, unless you do something very complicated with the line. On my Laser 3000 we found that it was a problem having two bundles of sailcloth arrive at the mouth of the sock simultaneously on the drop, so the trick was to secure the end of the retrieval line with a large bowline; this offsets the bundles of sail but does result in slightly more length of sock needed. You could achieve the same effect with a bobble or stopper knot a couple of feet down the line which cannot fit through the lower eye.

this is probably not the best spinnaker photo to mess with given i need to use different colours.....
there are 5 lines
Black line has 2 tails. one going up and zigzags thru the sail exiting at the hard. the other tail goes from the foot of the sail to the bag
Green line goes from the tack to the main eyelet, same as red line
Blue line attaches from the main eyelet and is a straight down haul

the point where the bag would be is the first point on deck where i made the lines touch, they then go a bit aft just for "illustration" purpose (not even sure the drawing can bear that weight of such word as illustration ahahah)

the retrieval process could be:
spill the sail by release the clew and tack guy/sheet
sheet in green and red line to max possible
sheet in top black line to max to fold the sail up
sheet in blue/black line to bring everything down into the bag

the sail would have to go up before it came down and inside the bag and the bagging would have to be in concert with the release of the main halyard
it a bit of lines to handle, but would this work?

waaayyy back i used to sail a 2 guy dinghy called L'equipe. the spinnaker wasnt big and it would retrieve inside a well underneath the fwd deck. thru a triangle at the very bow of the dinghy.
granted it was a good 1500 mm long so enough to house the sail.

it think this wouldnt work with a oversized spinnaker, it might even call for a slightly undersize one just to keep the footprint smaller.
im willing to give this a real life try. i just need to finish the damn refit first!

 

[r_h]

Is this what your sailmaker was thinking of: HOME | Deckchute.com
I believe they have been used on boats as large as J Class

 

[pmnfernando]

Is this what your sailmaker was thinking of: HOME | Deckchute.com
I believe they have been used on boats as large as J Class

i came across that company a while back when i started thinking about this.
nice looking equipment and im defo keeping that ring idea for the future but without paying those prices.......

 

[TLouth7]

I'm not sure what all these extra lines are adding to the system, nor why the black retrieval line has two tails? If you are focused on minimising the length of bag that the sail ends up in then you would want a zig-zag arrangement of eyelets in the sail that your single retrieval lines passes through. This zig-zag would gather the sail together sideways as well as vertically.

See here how a Laser 4000 has a single retrieval line with three eyelets. The luff of the spinnaker is >7m long, the sock is less than 2m long.

 

[pmnfernando]

I'm not sure what all these extra lines are adding to the system, nor why the black retrieval line has two tails? If you are focused on minimising the length of bag that the sail ends up in then you would want a zig-zag arrangement of eyelets in the sail that your single retrieval lines passes through. This zig-zag would gather the sail together sideways as well as vertically.

See here how a Laser 4000 has a single retrieval line with three eyelets. The luff of the spinnaker is >7m long, the sock is less than 2m long.

View attachment 161022

the green and red lines were an attempt to fold the sail onto itself before it goes inside the bag. ie, its what you mentioned by zigzaging the eyelets. staggering the eyelets its a better solution.
when i mentioned zigzagging the black line i meant it as threading in and out the sail but along the centreline of it.

the second tail of the black line could indeed disappear, but the blue one would be the "bagging" line because one would need something the bring the bunched up sail down whilst keeping it bunched up (ideally the black line would "lock" onto the main halyard, this way the sail would be locked into a ball whislt descending). and ,thinking of it now, the blue line wouldve to be anchored at the head of the spinnaker, not the bottom. to ennsure i would have enough travel to fully recover the rail

i still want to sail to go into a bag, not a sock. my boat is 30ft, i dont mind undersize the spinnaker if it means having it i compacted inside a bag that i need only to clip to the deck and guardrails, and that i can easily handle thru the fwd hatch. the idea is to be fully handled by a single person and avoid crowding a small, to begin with, deck. Because that means trippping, falling, injuries, or worst.

but..... can i have my Kate, and Edith too?!