Cruising Association and Robin KJ wade into the Schengen 90/180 day problem.

[Tranona]

This is a bit incorrect, Brits go to EU for work much more than people think, they also go for holidays as you say but they stay behind for many months working unofficially.

I know having been in and out of Europe in various ways over the last 40 years, but for at least the last 30 years, until 31/12/2020 the Brits you describe were not working "unofficially" as they had a right to work anywhere in the EU they fancied, even if in some states they also had to register locally. I think you vastly overestimate the numbers doing so at any one time, although over time probably millions, mostly young people have done so. As of 1/1/2021 such people will need to become resident if they qualify or get a working visa, or return to the UK.

I would imagine, though most who have chosen not to get residence have returned in the last year, rather like the estimated 250k+ EU citizens who left the UK last year.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But the point is - they don't. When did you see a load of package A320s full of hen parties, or ski parties flying in from the EU (any state) to Luton. Tourist is a catchall category meaning perhaps anything apart from work or business. Figures for entry into the UK come primarily from random consumer surveys at entry point, not from verifiable data such as entry cards.

I still think 2m visitors count. Perhaps even more because they tend to be concentrated in fairly small areas. Luton may not be a popular spot for hen parties, but I lived in Edinburgh for many years and it's rammed with tourist in the summer.

Are we arguing about anything which actually matters, by the way?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Its a strange idea that tourists could be distributed based on the population of the visited country (if that is really what you were suggesting). Maybe an inverse distribution would be better - more room?

It was just a rough notion that big places (France, German) probably get more tourists than small places (Belgium, Denmark). Of course the distribution is far from even: around 1/3 of UK tourist trips to Europe are package holidays to the south of Spain.

 

[mjcoon]

Are we arguing about anything which actually matters, by the way?

Perish the thought!

 

[Sandy]

Even more bizarre:

"The CA President and 180-Day Campaign spokesman Julian Dussek said that whilst the CA couldn’t be sure its approach would succeed, it was ‘also directly approaching key cruising countries to seek 180-day cruising visas for members."

Sounds extremely elitist, only their members! What about the other hundreds of boat owners who visit the schengen area each year?

It would be interesting to know how many boats this actually affects and why the skippers can't work out a cruising plan, like any other third country skipper, to work with the rules. It can't be that difficult.

 

[Mark-1]

It would be interesting to know how many boats this actually affects and why the skippers can't work out a cruising plan, like any other third country skipper, to work with the rules. It can't be that difficult.

This.

Judging by the number of non EU boats I've seen about it's just not a problem in the real world. If it is a problem then a solution will be found fast because places like Greece need the money, they certainly won't want to have artificial limits on foreign money coming in.

 

[Tranona]

Are we arguing about anything which actually matters, by the way?

Drifted away (what a surprise) from the original point I was trying to make. The UK position on movement was to limit the amount of migration from the EU (remember David Cameron trying to do this?) while protecting the rights of citizens (on both sides) who were established in the UK or EU. This has largely been achieved. Short term tourism needs are adequately met by the existing Schengen and UK tourist visa regimes. The notion that the EU offered a longer stay visa free period without strings which the UK rejected is not correct. The figures I used were to illustrate the relative importance of the tourist/working/established groups to each side in setting their objectives.

The groups that fall through the net are primarily boat owners and second/holiday home owners, but also include some caravaners and mobile home owners. Most of these are Brits in the EU rather than the other way round. In absolute terms the number is small, but for individuals (as exemplified by the CA) will find their way of life severely affected. Even in terms of boat owners and second home owners, the number directly affected is probably a minority as many are short term visitors or can adapt to the new restrictions.

Yes, it does matter as it helps understand why the situation is as it is - but as it is in the past and we have no control over it probably not a lot of help for the individuals or groups affected such as CA members.

There are of course other groups similarly affected like touring artistes who are lobbying in the same way to try and get the government to renegotiate. Probably not the best time to do it, but over time things may change.

 

[ip485]

Yawn. Will it ever end?

Can we just make the best of where we are for now, which means seeing if we can reduce the restrictions as far as possible.

 

[Tranona]

Sounds extremely elitist, only their members! What about the other hundreds of boat owners who visit the schengen area each year?

It would be interesting to know how many boats this actually affects and why the skippers can't work out a cruising plan, like any other third country skipper, to work with the rules. It can't be that difficult.

Visitors are not affected except by the additional controls which may or may not be onerous.

The people affected are those who have taken advantage of the freedom of movement over the last 30 years or more and have chosen to keep their boats in Europe so that they can cruise, visit, live on without any formal restrictions on where and when they go. it is clearly a dream that has been realised by many UK boat owners (including me at one time) as you can see from posts on these forums and a regular stream of articles in the yachting press. The 90/180 rule and the 18 month TA rules (for boats) makes this lifestyle difficult or for some impossible. As to numbers affected, probably runs into low tens of thousands, mainly in France (including the canal system), Spain, Portugal, Greece (particularly) Croatia and to a lesser extent Italy.

 

[Sandy]

Visitors are not affected except by the additional controls which may or may not be onerous.

The people affected are those who have taken advantage of the freedom of movement over the last 30 years or more and have chosen to keep their boats in Europe so that they can cruise, visit, live on without any formal restrictions on where and when they go. it is clearly a dream that has been realised by many UK boat owners (including me at one time) as you can see from posts on these forums and a regular stream of articles in the yachting press. The 90/180 rule and the 18 month TA rules (for boats) makes this lifestyle difficult or for some impossible. As to numbers affected, probably runs into low tens of thousands, mainly in France (including the canal system), Spain, Portugal, Greece (particularly) Croatia and to a lesser extent Italy.

But they are visitors to other countries, i.e. not a citizen of another country!

We had freedom of movement, but sadly voted not to have that freedom of movement. The people who have chosen to keep their boats in Europe now need to adapt to the new rules. Even the British Government are saying, "Check, Change, Go".

 

[Tranona]

Semantics maybe. Perhaps I should have qualified by saying "short term" visitors, who make up the vast majority of UK visitors .

It is naive to think that there could ever be an agreement to allow a greater level of freedom for a small subset of UK "visitors" where there is little to offer of value to EU visitors in return. As I tried to explain perhaps clumsily there is an asymmetry between the UK and EU in this area where the only real common ground is the tourism industry - that is short term visits where both sides can live with the new arrangements.

I expect in the future that those EU states which are heavily dependent on UK visitors, either short term or long term such as retirees or investors will introduce their own rules re visas and residence. Portugal for example has been doing this for some time.

The focus on both sides for negotiators was ensuring rights of existing residents were respected and this was largely achieved.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I expect in the future that those EU states which are heavily dependent on UK visitors, either short term or long term such as retirees or investors will introduce their own rules re visas and residence. Portugal for example has been doing this for some time.

The UK is also "heavily dependent" on tourists, for example 3 million Spanish visit the UK annually, spending £1.5 Billion in the UK every year.

 

[Tranona]

67 million UK residents visit the EU each year. How many package tour jets full of Spanish tourists arrive at Luton each day? The 3 million Spanish tourists are still welcome as genuine tourists with effectively no restrictions. Just as most of the 67 million UK visits to the EU will continue as most are unaffected by the Schengen rules.

This thread is all about whether the specific interests of a small minority of UK "visitors" who now have their freedom curtailed should have special conditions.

The point I was making is that for some states this minority is an important part of their economy and they may well over time make different arrangements to keep their business.

 

[Graham376]

67 million UK residents visit the EU each year. How many package tour jets full of Spanish tourists arrive at Luton each day? The 3 million Spanish tourists are still welcome as genuine tourists with effectively no restrictions. Just as most of the 67 million UK visits to the EU will continue as most are unaffected by the Schengen rules.

This thread is all about whether the specific interests of a small minority of UK "visitors" who now have their freedom curtailed should have special conditions.

The point I was making is that for some states this minority is an important part of their economy and they may well over time make different arrangements to keep their business.

When motorhomes, property owners and backpackers are added, it's quite a considerable minority. Pity representatives of the various groups can't get together, it may carry more weight if lobbied jointly.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I can see why this petition has attracted so few signatures:
Sign petition
Lobby to negotiate equal visa rights for U.K. citizens with property in EU area

Much like the Brexit referendum, the people for whom the issue has the greatest importance aren't allowed to vote because they aren't currently resident in the UK...

Well not sure that i understand this viewpoint ; the Brexit Issue was of the greatest of importance to those Brits, eligiable to vote, who actually live here all the time , thats continuously, regularly, all the time or whatever etc, thats why we needed and had then won the Referendum

Those Brits have been the most effected by the EU decisions , decisions that have effected their Life Styles, Employment, Neighbours, Incomes, EU judgements (like the Covid medication), like the many other small but niggling and petty EU rules over Fishing and Farming etc etc

Those whom spend a good part of their lives staying, sailing, boating, living abroad surely have to abide the outcome of our referendum and adjust their new lifestyles to International Regs and Rules, whatever they may be

Or get off their Butts and attempt to obtain Regs and Rules that would suit their chose life styles, by whichever that may be

But those in that possition really have no rights to expect favours or preferential treatment

 

[Poignard]

Well not sure that i understand this viewpoint ; the Brexit Issue was of the greatest of importance to those Brits, eligiable to vote, who actually live here all the time , thats continuously, regularly, all the time or whatever etc, thats why we needed and had then won the Referendum

Those Brits have been the most effected by the EU decisions , decisions that have effected their Life Styles, Employment, Neighbours, Incomes, EU judgements (like the Covid medication), like the many other small but niggling and petty EU rules over Fishing and Farming etc etc

Those whom spend a good part of their lives staying, sailing, boating, living abroad surely have to abide the outcome of our referendum and adjust their new lifestyles to International Regs and Rules, whatever they may be

Or get off their Butts and attempt to obtain Regs and Rules that would suit their chose life styles, by whichever that may be

But those in that possition really have no rights to expect favours or preferential treatment

We are not asking for favours or preferential treatment, we want no more than what we had before the idiots who ticked the Leave box in the 2016 Referendum initiated a process that took away freedoms we previously had as of right.

 

[Iliade]

Well not sure that i understand this viewpoint ; the Brexit Issue was of the greatest of importance to those Brits, eligiable to vote, who actually live here all the time , thats continuously, regularly, all the time or whatever etc, thats why we needed and had then won the Referendum

Those Brits have been the most effected by the EU decisions , decisions that have effected their Life Styles, Employment, Neighbours, Incomes, EU judgements (like the Covid medication), like the many other small but niggling and petty EU rules over Fishing and Farming etc etc

Those whom spend a good part of their lives staying, sailing, boating, living abroad surely have to abide the outcome of our referendum and adjust their new lifestyles to International Regs and Rules, whatever they may be

Or get off their Butts and attempt to obtain Regs and Rules that would suit their chose life styles, by whichever that may be

But those in that possition really have no rights to expect favours or preferential treatment

Say you had property in Europe and spent most of your time there, having passed your old UK residence to your kids. Then the UK had a referendum to decide whether to remove your right to live, travel and work freely in the EU, but you were not allowed to vote in it! How would you feel?

This a genuine example by the way.

I believe there were about as many Brits abroad who were disallowed from voting than the margin by which the leave vote passed. Utterly disingenuous. (I just checked, about 5million in all)

 

[Capt Popeye]

We are not asking for favours or preferential treatment, we want no more than what we had before the idiots who ticked the Leave box in the 2016 Referendum initiated a process that took away freedoms we previously had as of right.

Oh yes the BIG Rs are asking for continuation of Freedoms and Rights gained from being a member of a European Consortium drivng towards a Federation , rather like a Club, but in our combined vote we decided long long ago that - 'better out than in' was the prefered choice of most, in this country, whatever Political pursuation etc

 

[Capt Popeye]

Say you had property in Europe and spent most of your time there, having passed your old UK residence to your kids. Then the UK had a referendum to decide whether to remove your right to live, travel and work freely in the EU, but you were not allowed to vote in it! How would you feel?

This a genuine example by the way.

I believe that there were more Brits abroad who were disallowed from voting than the margin by which the leave vote passed. Utterly disingenuous.

Yes Ihave great sympathy with the cause you describe, I do indeed, but a line had to be drawn somewhere I suppose; so for easy it was decided that those actually resident in UK/GB should be able to vote; guess it might have appeared that those Residing in the EU or whatever had already got what they wanted; residing in another country, freedom to travel elsewhere in that country, which might not be available to them after Brexit

 

[Poignard]

Oh yes the BIG Rs are asking for continuation of Freedoms and Rights gained from being a member of a European Consortium drivng towards a Federation , rather like a Club, but in our combined vote we decided long long ago that - 'better out than in' was the priefered choice of most, in this country, whatever Political pursuation etc

More fool you then; for voting for something that would do immense harm to many (and I am not just referring to yachtsmen and second-home owners) and benefit only a wealthy few.

What the hell did you think you think you were playingt at?