Crossed anchor advice - Fiskardo

[Tranona]

I just re-read my original post and I don't get what your problem with it is - it seems perfectly clear and straight forward to me. Seems like my magnet is doing its thing again but on a forum. That's a joke by the way just in case you don't read it as such!

Yes, I have re-read them and I see an account of a person admitting to deliberately playing loud music late at night to annoy another person, claiming "it had to be done". And on another occasion deliberately playing loud obscene music to annoy another person. Both of these things seem to me to fit the description of "stupid and selfish" just as much as other persons running their engines.

However I see later that God is on the side of the person who annoys others by playing loud, obscene music, so I guess different standards apply to them.

Or maybe I am just out of touch with today's acceptable standards of behaviour.

 

[Cardo]

Yes, I have re-read them and I see an account of a person admitting to deliberately playing loud music late at night to annoy another person, claiming "it had to be done". And on another occasion deliberately playing loud obscene music to annoy another person. Both of these things seem to me to fit the description of "stupid and selfish" just as much as other persons running their engines.

However I see later that God is on the side of the person who annoys others by playing loud, obscene music, so I guess different standards apply to them.

Or maybe I am just out of touch with today's acceptable standards of behaviour.

I guess what it boils down to is the usual: When you've been polite and they've told you to naff off, what do you do?
1) Bugger all, sit there and take it, including the hit to your pride.
2) Take it a step further to try and make your point, potentially alienating others around you.

I've been trying to think of what I would do in a similar situation. I've had a few occasions where people next to us have been a bit daft in relation to running engines late at night, but it's never bothered me enough to make an issue out of it. But if it did, and asking politely didn't work, what would I do? The obvious answer is something like booming loud music and out-annoy them, but then you end up potentially peeing off others.
The best one I've thought of so far is to whip out Mr Todger and take a great big wee over their deck. Doesn't work if one has a shy bladder, though!

 

[Tranona]

Don't really have an answer, but pretty sure playing loud obscene music in retaliation is not a good start!

Perhaps we need to remember (as I hope I did when I spent time in Greece) that we are all guests there whether we be Brits, Italians, Russians, liveaboards, charterers or whatever and recognise we all have our own way of going about things and learn to be more tolerant about what we see as failures in others. After all most of us are living out our dreams and we should rejoice in positives rather than dwell on the negatives.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Don't really have an answer, but pretty sure playing loud obscene music in retaliation is not a good start!

Agreed. That's how wars start. Respond to irritation with aggression, inviting a spiralling escalation of hostilities.

Perhaps we need to remember (as I hope I did when I spent time in Greece) that we are all guests there whether we be Brits, Italians, Russians, liveaboards, charterers or whatever and recognise we all have our own way of going about things and learn to be more tolerant about what we see as failures in others. After all most of us are living out our dreams and we should rejoice in positives rather than dwell on the negatives.

Also, we need to remember the days when we were new to boating. Many critics of novice behaviour conveniently forget that they, too, once made mistakes which entertained, and sometimes annoyed, the quayside audience sipping their sundowners.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This has worked for me many a times , dinghy over and not shout over , and just tell them you have a sleeping baby on board and would their mind turning the music down a bit , or better still sent the wife or partner , so far I have not once been told NO , although after writhing this I given the game away .
www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[jimbaerselman]

First of all - it is unlikely that any of the scenarios described would escalate to war. Wars happen because pompous politicians have to justify their own level of importance to themselves.

For "wars", read "fights" - whether they be verbal or physical. I was being allegorical. Obviously a faulty approach to serious problems.

Also none of the people described by me were new to boating. One was a professional skipper and the other was an older Italian on a home built boat that he had clearly owned (and not maintained particularly well) for quite some time. Hence his need to run his engine for three hours in a day despite having a big array of solar panels on a sunny day - I expect his batteries were knackered and he was too stupid to realise that the rapidly dropping voltage told him this.

I was referring to the majority of recent posts on the thread, which commented on the entertainment afforded by novice mistakes. Ownership, as such, does not necessarily mean knowledge or experience. Nor are professional skippers necessarily experienced in styles of mooring which are new experiences for themselves.

I'm sure there are lots of circumstances where I'm likely to make a cock-up. The trouble is, I don't know what they are until they arrive . . . I then hope the audience is sympathetic, rather than arrogantly dismissive. But that's another lesson learnt . . .

 

[Tranona]

You've hit the nail on the head there. What people think is acceptable behaviour now is not. People have become more selfish and thoughtless and seem to be lacking in common sense.

In the old days engine running on a quay was more accepted but then along came solar panels and the realization that hours of engine running was both bad for the environment and likely to cause health issues for anyone breathing in the fumes (why do you think garages have expensive exhaust gas extraction systems?) It's not rocket science - run it when it annoys only you and kills only yourself.

So whenever you politely request something of someone and they very rudely refuse you would just sit back and put up with it? What are you a door mat? Have you never heard of an eye for an eye? If you behave reasonably then you can expect reasonable behaviour in return. Iif your unreasonable then expect unreasonable in return and don't expect anybody to come rescue you when you're sinking.

Oh and before you say 'two wrongs don't make a right' I'd point out that if there was one wrong and a reasonable response to being asked to not do that wrong then the second wrong wouldn't even need to be considered.

You seem to have totally missed the point. Playing loud obscene music to deliberately annoy somebody is NOT acceptable behaviour - by your own admission.

And yes, if I was on the receiving end of behaviour I find unacceptable I would not retaliate with equally unacceptable behaviour for the reasons Jim suggests. As you quite rightly observe elsewhere, disputes are caused by pompous people who have to justify their importance to themselves.

One of the things I don't miss about not being in Greece on my boat is having people moor alongside me and impose on me. That includes the odd Brit who thinks that they are the arbiters of all that is good and are intent on making sure everybody knows it.

 

[jimbaerselman]

So asking you to turn your engine off at 11pm would be imposing on you?

Well, yes. A better approach is to explain your inconvenience (which the fellow may not have realised due to lack of experience) then suggest he works out the solution, rather than telling him what to do.

And yes, if I was on the receiving end of behaviour I find unacceptable I would not retaliate with equally unacceptable behaviour for the reasons Jim suggests.

That's the opposite of conflict resolution. It's "conflict escalation", in management jargon. A well studied field. Vic has got the idea as well -

just tell them you have a sleeping baby on board and would their mind turning the music down a bit , or better still send the wife or partner

Here's an article which describes several constructive approaches to conflict resolution: http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_81.htm

 

[Bertramdriver]

Having endured pretty much everything listed in the thread I have to conclude that there is very little compassion, common sense and civility left in the Greek waters. I've tried being polite, passive aggressive and down right abusive but very little works when up against Latino arrogance, charterers incompetence or Slavic aggression. The only solution is to grin and bear it and then bale out.
Having two big Detroits help. If I've been particularly peed off by a neighbour I can give them an hour to warm up before I leave. Two 450hp two strokes produce a lot of noxious fumes when left to tick over.
What saddens me is how much things have changed from our early cruising days in Greek waters. The peace, quiet, good company and manners made every day a pleasure. Now a visit to port means not leaving the boat and sitting with a beer in one hand and a boat hook in the other waiting for the next lemming to impale themselves on our property.
For those recently arrived or in transit to persue their dream I've no doubt they will accept what they find and take their pleasure as it comes. I wish them well. But I'm looking for more peaceful waters. Any suggestions?

 

[vyv_cox]

I can't help thinking that if you berth in the most popular places at the height of summer you are going to have to put up with a lot more of this kind of trouble than if you go to the quieter places, always excepting the ones that Rod Heikell describes as 'remote and peaceful', which are unfailingly packed out. In the southern Cyclades and Dodecanese this year we have experienced almost no aggressive or antisocial behaviour, with a couple of minor exceptions. The Greeks themselves are as welcoming as ever and the charterers mostly go to the well-known places and avoid the smaller, far better ones. Anchoring off and using the tender, first choice of many liveaboards, avoids these problems altogether.

 

[Caladh]

+1 - Sensible words as usual from vyv.

 

[sailaboutvic]

For those recently arrived or in transit to persue their dream I've no doubt they will accept what they find and take their pleasure as it comes. I wish them well. But I'm looking for more peaceful waters. Any suggestions?

SORRY posting is a bit long ...
I have to agree there no doubt the earlier days where the best ,but that apply every where including East coast of Suffolk , Greece is a lovely place to sail but trying to find somewhere where there no loud music playing from bars or boats , bay that are not flooded with charter boats , or whole quays taken over by people who just sit there from week to week , is harder and harder to find , some of the most beauty fully place are now use as rubbish tips . before someone say " I am at so and so and it find here " yes there are still place we all know that .
The only reason newbee to Greece think is wonderfully is because there don't know any better plus there have just sailed thought some of the worst part of the Med and all the sudden there are face with all these islands .
Our story .
We have put off from come to Croatia for Five years , because of all the rumours we heard and read about mostly from people repeating hear say and never been here them self may I add mostly from British yachtsmen and after sailing for over 30 years I should know better so I can only Blane myself for listening to them .
This is our six week in Croatia , we have sail from the south all the way North and are now making our way slowly back South to catch up on all the places we missed coming down .
It been some of the best sailing we had for years , the cleanness of this country and the seas make Greece look like a tip , the islands as well as the main land is green and full of wild life , most of the people are friendly and help full . Other then places like Dubrovnik , Spit , Zadar and a few other place where charter yacht seen to congress there rest of the time the place seen empty , we sailed 35 miles yesterday seeing only six yacht in all .
We anchor every night and the most we had is six or seven yacht which are well spread out , most night there only been two or three yacht with us .
We had no problem with picking up mooring buoy and staying most of the day while out exploring without a demand for money , if you sail in Greece 18 or 20 years ago and can still remember what it was like , that would I would compear Croatia with .
Yes it has it down side , you have to pay taxes and other fee to enter , but there are not outrageous , expressly ageist what Greece are trying to charge .
The winds can be unpredictable and you have to be able to deal with them .
Thunderstorm ( now there a surprise ) we had our fair share of them and more , one day we had to deal with three of them while we was sailing , even with our experience , dealing with 40 kts of wind coming from nowhere is no fun although we can now reef a sail quickie that a formal one race team can change a wheel .
Is it expenses to sail here ? YES if you want to moor to town walls or pick up buoy every night , NO if you happy to anchor , you will hear rumours of people coming out to charge you for anchoring , we had this happen twice , both time we Stood our ground , both time they given in and left us along ,
What does surprise me is the lack of British yacht , we seen five in all .
Croatia isn't for every one , if the word Bora scares the living day lights out of you , maybe you better of in Greece .
I just want to finish this of by saying , the first time we met a British yacht was when we entered Croatia to clear in , they where on the wall and arrived the day before , one of his first words to me was " welcome to rip off Croatia " I asked him why , and he reply I am paying 45 Euros a night to be on the quay without any power or water , Now I sure that this man is not going to be happy in Croatia and will be telling everyone that story for years to come . By the way we was maybe 170 mts away from him on our anchor and it cost us nothing .
Am I making all this up ?, the only way you will find out is coming here your self and see .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[Birvidik_Bob]

If you think the French are bad....

Spoke to soon!

A friggin froggy on an ovni has just picked up our anchor - we had to run bloody miles to get back to the boat- and dumped it 5 boats down just in front of the bows of the stern to boats. We got there just before the stern started grinding on the concrete.

The Sh!Thead did not even have the courtesy to warn anyone or apologies. Just wait till I get my hands round his scrawny neck.

That makes 5 times this year - and ALL french........

One, in a 60 footer steamed off with our anchor attached to his. I have never seen 50 meters of chain bar taught out of the water! We had warned him that he had laid his chain across ups! He came back in his dinghy to apologize though. I dont know how the foredeck stood it let alone the winch

Hi Chris.

If you think the French are bad, try the Danes:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/?xjMsgID=194193

Cheers

Bob

 

[Birvidik_Bob]

Hello Bob

How's your summer going? Sold the boat yet? How's Einstein?

I think you might be making the common mistake of tarring a whole nation due to one or two bad experiences. From my experience there is no direct link between stupidity and nationality. It's a numbers game. Sometimes you just get your anchor crossed or picked up by a stupid person who just happens to be the same nationality as the last stupid person to do the same thing.

Unfortunately the world appears to full of stupid people (especially when you are as clever as both you and I know we are) and unfortunately stupid people seem to like sailing a lot for some reason.

Cheers Chris

Ah! Now you've done it. We now sit in fear of Birvidik being boarded by hordes of irate Danes armed with blood axes and led by Sandi Toksvig playing a Nordic Boudicca. I fear the sub-Swiftian irony in my blog post was a tad too subtle for its own good.

Mind you, if you did a chi squared test on the likelihood of getting of getting four positives out of such a small sample it would show a degree of statistical significance.

Still haven't sold Einstein or found a good home for Birvidik.

Cheers

BnL

 

[Bertramdriver]

Hi Chris.

If you think the French are bad, try the Danes:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/birvidik/?xjMsgID=194193

Cheers

Bob

Thanks for that.. SWMBO was splitting her sides, reassured that the Bertram is not being singled out for special attention.
As for the universal cure advocated by other liveaboards, i.e. mooring off and use the dingy. It's fine if you don't need regular exercise (arthritis), find getting into and out off the rubber duck hazardous (old age) and have no desire to live on hard tack and baked beans. Life is normally safer and more secure tied to a harbour wall.
Finally we come to the nub of the argument....why are we daft enough to be in a popular place during the season. Now know that it's all my fault, as I should restrict to cruising to the winter months and visit places not on the charts.
Interestingly only Sailaboutvic has offered the only alternative. Hope to meet one day.

 

[nickf]

Interestingly only Sailaboutvic has offered the only alternative. Hope to meet one day.

Personally having "done" most of the popular Mediterranean Countries Croatia is now one of my least favourites (now Yugoslavia was a different matter) but that is what makes it great - we all like different areas. I have "settled" in the Ionian and have little difficulty finding quiet (ie only me) when I find the need even in August (and no I am not going to say where!). Each to there own - I am frequently asked what is my favourite area/port/anchorage but have difficulty choosing - they are all different. Pleased Sailaboutvic is enjoying Croatia but will await with interest his opinion at the end of the season!

 

[TonyMS]

We must be missing something. Arrived Argostoli early June, and have cruised gently to Corfu and back.
So far, we've met no engine chargers out of working hours, nor any unwelcome music. No one has crossed our anchor, though we crossed someone else's - sorted in 5 mins with complete good humour. We've met lots of pleasant people, including French and Italians, and people enjoying a flotilla holiday.
It may just be bad luck getting all these bad experiences, but I suspect that is not the whole story.
Happy cruising!
Tony

 

[sailaboutvic]

We must be missing something. Arrived Argostoli early June, and have cruised gently to Corfu and back.
So far, we've met no engine chargers out of working hours, nor any unwelcome music. No one has crossed our anchor, though we crossed someone else's - sorted in 5 mins with complete good humour. We've met lots of pleasant people, including French and Italians, and people enjoying a flotilla holiday.
It may just be bad luck getting all these bad experiences, but I suspect that is not the whole story.
Happy cruising!
Tony

Tony without being rude you been there five mins , maybe you should ask Roy the problem he had in the two seasons he was there , the night him and me had to go and rescue an couple on a charter because Nelson decided they was running late for there BBQ got everyone to dump there yacht and go ashore , even tho we told the lead skipper the wind going to pick he took no notice an hour later we had to help the couple the sailing holiday yacht was being drag along by two of the Nelson yacht ,
Or the cat who parked almost on top of Roy and when told he was too close , F and blind at Roy , few hour later they touch and even at that point the guy didn't want to move Or the one that took two of my stanchions while trying to anchor and rev in a space you could had got three boats in , and even though I told him that I would tie him onto our boat and sort out his lines for him he still insisted he could do it him self five mins later RAM at the same time taken our anchor . This all happened in one season or should I say in a few months .
I would go on it get boring . I had over 13 years of it on and off and each year it seen to get worst , Most of the problem happen in the Ionian , too many charter hovering in the same area , too many very novice skipper handing boat which are much too big for them , suggest get away from the Ionian ASAP , head down to the Peloponnesus or Aegean where you are less likely to have .the problem , too windy for novice skippers .

What you have in your favour this year is before we left early in the summer we found it very quiet so you maybe you will lucky .. Enjoy Greece

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[sailaboutvic]

Personally having "done" most of the popular Mediterranean Countries Croatia is now one of my least favourites (now Yugoslavia was a different matter) but that is what makes it great - we all like different areas. I have "settled" in the Ionian and have little difficulty finding quiet (ie only me) when I find the need even in August (and no I am not going to say where!). Each to there own - I am frequently asked what is my favourite area/port/anchorage but have difficulty choosing - they are all different. Pleased Sailaboutvic is enjoying Croatia but will await with interest his opinion at the end of the season!

Hi Nick
We have till the second or third week of sept here before we head back to Greece for a month or so be fore heading west .I will write a full report on my site and I can promise you it will be truthful , I gain nothing by make Croatia look good or bad , all I am hoping to do is hopefully give people an insight of what Croatia has or hasn't got to offer ,
That is why I am only given info on what we find and any cost we incur , I am trying to keep my own option out of the web site .

On the other hand what I write here on the forum is my option but as we all know five people can go to the same place and give five different options . Good thing we not all made the same .

www.bluewatersailorcroatia.webs.com

 

[jimbaerselman]

Tony without being rude you been there five mins , maybe you should ask Roy the problem he had in the two seasons he was there , the night him and me had to go and rescue an couple on a charter because Nelson decided they was running late for there BBQ got everyone to dump there yacht and go ashore , even tho we told the lead skipper the wind going to pick he took no notice an hour later we had to help the couple the sailing holiday yacht was being drag along by two of the Nelson yacht ,
Or the cat who parked almost on top of Roy and when told he was too close , F and blind at Roy , few hour later they touch and even at that point the guy didn't want to move Or the one that took two of my stanchions while trying to anchor and rev in a space you could had got three boats in , and even though I told him that I would tie him onto our boat and sort out his lines for him he still insisted he could do it him self five mins later RAM at the same time taken our anchor . This all happened in one season or should I say in a few months .
I would go on it get boring .

Hey Vic,

It's all relative.

I think I've just managed most of that in the Solent over the last week . . . plus getting in the way as three blocks of flats arrived and then departed form Southampton, interspersed with two cattle transporters, some tens of container ships, and thousands of dinghies T-boning each other. Every creek around the place is wall to wall rafts of moorings, boats, pontoons. Can't see the woods for the GRP and the masts. And they tell me it's empty compared to a couple of weeks time.