Correlation between boatbuilding and politicians

[westernman]

Yeah, that was suspended in 2021 I think? But it's up for review again in March this year.

Currently duty on boats imported into the US is between 1.5 and 4.5%. Very small beer. 25% would kill the trade dead imo.

It did for imports of US boats into EU/UK.

 

[Clash]

It did for imports of US boats into EU/UK.

Not surprising really. I remember reading that back in 2022, Princess made sales valued at over £60 million at just one boat show in Miami.

 

[Grubble]

Does anyone know what the equivalent tax rates, including employer's NI etc in countries like France, Italy and Germany which all seem to have succesful boatbuilders?

Apologies if this has already been raised somewhere amongst the frenzy of posts.

 

[westernman]

Does anyone know what the equivalent tax rates, including employer's NI etc in countries like France, Italy and Germany which all seem to have succesful boatbuilders?

Apologies if this has already been raised somewhere amongst the frenzy of posts.

For France:

Employer cost of a gross salary of 25K per year is 35.3K
Net salary (before income tax) for employee 19.5K (what he sees on his monthly pay slip).
At 25K per year he will probably not be paying income tax.

NB 35 hour week.

 

[benjenbav]

Not surprising really. I remember reading that back in 2022, Princess made sales valued at over £60 million at just one boat show in Miami.

I’m probably missing something, but I’ve occasionally struggled to align the cheery numbers of sales that boatbuilders announce at every big show with the sometimes more downbeat numbers in their published accounts.

 

[Portofino]

And I mentioned this before, but clearly needs repeating, Princess reports 35% of their sales come from the US. I doubt there's much of a difference between them and other boat builders like Sunseeker in that regard. They also sell 5% in the UK. An increase in tariffs into the US (something Trump has promised to do) would have a much more chilling effect than a few percentage points extra on a notional UK buyer's CGT bill.

You are mixing up clouding it all . Getting destination crossed with buyers home / passport etc .
It’s doesn’t matter where they are berthed . What matter is where the dosh is coming from to fund them .
If a large % ( compared to say San Lorenzo ) of S/Skr buyers are Brits , entrepreneurs, business owners , other asset owners ….fall into the “ broad shoulders “ peeps then they , only a few need to to stumble , hold back last Autumn/ summer defer a new boat and bcz the margins / profits are thin = hey presto here we are .

Also Kashurts post 52 firsts para which accurately describes inmo the next few sectors up .Ie the £25 - £ 200M +++ buyer profiles of metal boats constructed in Holland , Germany and Italy .Those are past S/Skr buyers not current .

I think the sub £25 M esp down at £1.5 - £15 M still stuck at the level buying plastic boats are self made asset rich .As said only takes a few U.K. based to cock off . Not particularly world wide savvy in terms of international finance as the metal boat lads .

Back to basics the Gov isn’t ( thus far ) finding the extra cash in taxes from the “ workers “ it’s stripping it from potential S/Skrs buyers .We talking a cohort last yr of 150 .

 

[Portofino]

I’m probably missing something, but I’ve occasionally struggled to align the cheery numbers of sales that boatbuilders announce at every big show with the sometimes more downbeat numbers in their published accounts.

Correct .
Sales of $60 M at a show helps with cash flow as the depos flow in , and fill the pipeline over the 12/12 or what ever .

But if production costs ends up $590995 for those particular boats , then it’s pretty pointless or worse still ( costs of resin ^ ) those boats end up costing ( contracts tied up prices @ depo stage ) $61 M .

That particular set of losses is hidden in the gen accounts of hopefully more profitable build .

Or the owners tip more cash in under “ investment strategy “

Try again next year , but it all ends up a rinse and repeat normally. Sure odd yrs the ducks align it keeps it head above water and require no extra “ investment “ from the owners. Then the owners desperately attempts to offload it hunting for the elusive buyer .

 

[Alicatt]

Does anyone know what the equivalent tax rates, including employer's NI etc in countries like France, Italy and Germany which all seem to have succesful boatbuilders?

Apologies if this has already been raised somewhere amongst the frenzy of posts.

For someone taking home around €43k per year for a gross salary of around €130k, it would cost the employer €170k per year.

Labour and tax rates are quite high in Belgium!

My daughter is a HR manager in an IT company and my son is a chartered accountant, from where I got those rough figures.

A friend has a gross pension of just over €75k and he gets to keep €48k of that in his hand, it was a subject of discussion over the New Year and how the taxation in Belgie is pure robbery.

 

[Portofino]

For France:

Employer cost of a gross salary of 25K per year is 35.3K
Net salary (before income tax) for employee 19.5K (what he sees on his monthly pay slip).
At 25K per year he will probably not be paying income tax.

NB 35 hour week.

How are the Fr boat builders doing ?
I know it’s a different market and price point but I don’t see home Labour market cost pulling them down .

Not sure if the U.K. extra 2 % on nic is going to effect S/Skr per se as it will just be slow or stop replacing leavers .

But there U.K. buyers , potentially customers that are business owner s that can’t shed staff will take a hit , or wait to see how this will pan out and as said hesitate about replacing the existing boat ….not order another .
Arguably another result of change of Gov on S/Skr …..at both ends . Sales and profit .

 

[MapisM]

If you don't like what Portofino says (and, to be honest, many's the time I haven't liked what he's said!) there must be an easier way of letting him know it than conducting a poll so awkward that you have to end up explaining what it's about to people you might otherwise expect to share your views on B----- and its disastrous consequences for our country.

Your effort to read between the lines is remarkable to the point of missing the line itself.
In fact, it wasn't a matter of liking what PF said or not, and even less of letting him know that (*).
I was just curious to check the forum views on this matter, and the poll proved very effective in this regard. Nothing else.
Besides, it's not like everyone asked me to explain what it's about - in fact, only yourself and PF did.
Hence my reply, whose simplicity still stands regardless of what might creep in the background of your mind.

(*) for the records, on this specific matter, if you think it's humanly possible to convince PF that something (anything, really!) he writes is wrong, good luck.
I lost this hope ages ago, and don't ask me to explain why, because that's even more self-explanatory than the reason for my poll, I reckon.

 

[Clash]

You are mixing up clouding it all . Getting destination crossed with buyers home / passport etc .
It’s doesn’t matter where they are berthed . What matter is where the dosh is coming from to fund them .
If a large % ( compared to say San Lorenzo ) of S/Skr buyers are Brits , entrepreneurs, business owners , other asset owners ….fall into the “ broad shoulders “ peeps then they , only a few need to to stumble , hold back last Autumn/ summer defer a new boat and bcz the margins / profits are thin = hey presto here we are .

What? The majority of boat sales from UK manufacturers are exports. The dosh is coming from abroad. From the FT article on Princess I linked on the Sunseeker thread:
"Many are bought by entrepreneurs, some of whom already own a Princess and are upgrading. Half its sales are made in Mediterranean countries and 35 per cent in the US; the UK accounts for only about 5 per cent."

Also Kashurts post 52 firsts para which accurately describes inmo the next few sectors up .Ie the £25 - £ 200M +++ buyer profiles of metal boats constructed in Holland , Germany and Italy .

It patently doesn't. Maybe read it again? He specifically mentions £1 million plus boats. Twice in that paragraph. Where are you getting £25 to £200 million?

I think the sub £25 M esp down at £1.5 - £15 M still stuck at the level buying plastic boats are self made asset rich .As said only takes a few U.K. based to cock off . Not particularly world wide savvy in terms of international finance as the metal boat lads .

There is only a few UK based according to Princess Yachts. How significant is (say) a drop from 5% to 2.5%?

Back to basics the Gov isn’t ( thus far ) finding the extra cash in taxes from the “ workers “ it’s stripping it from potential S/Skrs buyers .We talking a cohort last yr of 150 .

A cohort of what? Where are you getting 150 from?

 

[Clash]

I’m probably missing something, but I’ve occasionally struggled to align the cheery numbers of sales that boatbuilders announce at every big show with the sometimes more downbeat numbers in their published accounts.

Possibly timing differences? Sale made at X boat show in year 1. Sale doesn't actually get completed until year 2.

But the issue doesn't seem to be sales. You see incremental increases year on year, but profitability is falling or static. Fairline making a gross loss every year for the last five, points to more systemic problems. Selling boats for less than it costs to make them before overheads is not sustainable. Something has to change. And it seems the European boat builders have done that with investment in production facilities and automation. A lot of them seem to outsource components rather than manufacture in house.

 

[Clash]

For France:

Employer cost of a gross salary of 25K per year is 35.3K
Net salary (before income tax) for employee 19.5K (what he sees on his monthly pay slip).
At 25K per year he will probably not be paying income tax.

NB 35 hour week.

I dug out Groupe Beneteau's results for 2023. Very profitable company with EBITDA at 17%.

 

[Blueboatman]

The solution for uk motorboat builders might perhaps in part be to offer solar panel clad, reverse osmosis , carbon sequestering , wave energy gathering, electric/ chip fat, hybrid powered, tax relief gathering, self propelling floating homes?
And apply for a gumment grant to innovate, research and build them .
And an export license to sell to the world ..

I dug out Groupe Beneteau's results for 2023. Very profitable company with EBITDA at 17%.
View attachment 187533

As for Benny, iirc companies that supply ( and re supply) charter markets do well by hurricane devastations..

 

[dunedin]

Perhaps the world has decided that hyper expensive superyachts that have a huge carbon footprint / burn fuel at huge rates - and guests tend to fly in by private plane / helicopter - are not the best use of the world’s resources ?

 

[westernman]

Perhaps the world has decided that hyper expensive superyachts that have a huge carbon footprint / burn fuel at huge rates - and guests tend to fly in by private plane / helicopter - are not the best use of the world’s resources ?

But Sunseeker and Fairline don't supply that market.

That is the likes of Lurssen, Royal Huisman, Feadship, Abeking & Rasmussen.

 

[kashurst]

The solution for uk motorboat builders might perhaps in part be to offer solar panel clad, reverse osmosis , carbon sequestering , wave energy gathering, electric/ chip fat, hybrid powered, tax relief gathering, self propelling floating homes?
And apply for a gumment grant to innovate, research and build them .
And an export license to sell to the world ..

As for Benny, iirc companies that supply ( and re supply) charter markets do well by hurricane devastations..

The UK boat builders need to either heavily automate and design for manufacture to improve productivity and make it easier to get through periods of weaker sales or off shore the manufacturing to where labour is cheaper. Or actually both.
No one can operate a competitive manufacturing business using 1980s methods and systems. Nobody.
Beneteau et al. do do "well" out of hurricanes, that's because they make popular good value (relatively) boats and sell loads of them. So when a hurricane happens Benny boats are a significant proportion of wrecked boats. The hurricane is bad news the real sales success is product and process.

 

[Clash]

The UK boat builders need to either heavily automate and design for manufacture to improve productivity and make it easier to get through periods of weaker sales or off shore the manufacturing to where labour is cheaper. Or actually both.

Also outsourcing could help cut costs. Cabinetry in particular seems to be an area that European boat builders outsource. A cabinetry operation that supplies multiple builders would have better economies of scale one would presume. Below is the unit that I posted about before in the Princess tour. It's actually a TV unit, not a galley unit. 60 hours to assemble this.

 

[westernman]

Also outsourcing could help cut costs. Cabinetry in particular seems to be an area that European boat builders outsource. A cabinetry operation that supplies multiple builders would have better economies of scale one would presume. Below is the unit that I posted about before in the Princess tour. It's actually a TV unit, not a galley unit. 60 hours to assemble this.
View attachment 187537

That is just crazy for the market they are in.

Might be OK for the very high end cost no object market of the real super-yacht businesses who are building yachts for the Musks, Gates, etc. However, I suspect even there it is all produced by CNC machines and assembled in less time than it takes me to assemble anything from IKEA.

It does not work for the $1-$25 million market where bang for the buck is important.

 

[Portofino]

What? The majority of boat sales from UK manufacturers are exports. The dosh is coming from abroad. From the FT article on Princess I linked on the Sunseeker thread:
"Many are bought by entrepreneurs, some of whom already own a Princess and are upgrading. Half its sales are made in Mediterranean countries and 35 per cent in the US; the UK accounts for only about 5 per cent."

It patently doesn't. Maybe read it again? He specifically mentions £1 million plus boats. Twice in that paragraph. Where are you getting £25 to £200 million?

There is only a few UK based according to Princess Yachts. How significant is (say) a drop from 5% to 2.5%?

A cohort of what? Where are you getting 150 from?

I am talking S/Skr here not Priny .
The 150 units is from the article posted in the other thread the lay off thread @ Sunny posted by MC Anderson.Which triggered this thread .

The French for what ever reason swoon over Priny so iam not surprised of there sales profile you outlined .
How do I know this ?
There Cote d Azur franchise as is Sunseekers btw is based La napoule where we were based over a decade .
Saw loadsa French demo , sale , collect , hand over Prinys .Hardly any Brit s supporting your Priny figures.

Saw Loadsa Brits similar doing , buying , handing over S/Skrs all shapes and size , same in the adjacent yard at La Rague .

So I don’t know why you are pushing Priny numbers here on a thread (s) about S/Skr ?

Different animals !

In the French eyes , they almost think , assume Priny is the go to luxury boat builder compared to there Bennys etc .It’s was / is owned by a successful French arguably in the U.K. boat manufacturing world a sugar daddy .
Placed the brand alongside his other lux business .That might explain the French thingy .They love them .Maybe a cynic would say the step up quality wise , fit , fin , look etc is easy from a French boat ? Dunno ?

S/Skr is seen as the top , the premier U.K. builder of boats , marketing , heritage , product placement legacy or what have you . It the more go to builder .of the two .

I bought one from the factory back in 2005 and there were many other Brit buyers at and around at the time .
The 95 % figure is they are exported to sunny climates , not bought by foreigners. Maybe , but usually there is journalistic fuddle by writers on the subject .

I don’t know the exact figure % split of Brits buyers for Sunny , but it ain’t 5 % .

Which ever way you want to argue the incumbent folks @ no10/11 , policy will affect S/Skr sales , bcz they are more reliant on Brits .
Spare money by a few potential buyers as said for various reasons will NOT be used to fund a plastic boat this yr .
Deposits have slowed and here we are . Only takes a handful remember

This is different as I said from the normal slowdowns , cyclical sales .

Anyhow let’s wait to see what actually happens .