Correlation between boatbuilding and politicians

[Portofino]

But Sunseeker and Fairline don't supply that market.

That is the likes of Lurssen, Royal Huisman, Feadship, Abeking & Rasmussen.

I was using plastic and metal boats to differentiate.

 

[Clash]

I am talking S/Skr here not Priny .
The 150 units is from the article posted in the other thread the lay off thread @ Sunny posted by MC Anderson.Which triggered this thread .

It wasn't clear whether you were referring to workers or buyers. Sunseeker aren't the only ones laying people off, Princess laid off 300 last year. And according to SS themselves the layoffs are temporary - probably for cashflow, which seems to be the norm after these takeovers.

So I don’t know why you are pushing Priny numbers here on a thread (s) about S/Skr ?

Because I can't find similar figures for SS (when I have time I will investigate). I appreciate they're different companies, but I have heard (without backup) that SS export a lot to the States.

Saw Loadsa Brits similar doing , buying , handing over S/Skrs all shapes and size , same in the adjacent yard at La Rague .

This may be the case, but the plural of anecdote is not data and by your own admission, this is not a current observation. As I say above, I will investigate further.

Edit: And with a bit more effort, I found this. It's not dated, but the web page was first published in December 2023, so it's pretty recent. 99% exported. Even more than Princess.


And this from 2021, so not just one year.

And one from 2007 quoting the same 99% as in 2023. I think that's case closed.

 

[Portofino]

It wasn't clear whether you were referring to workers or buyers. Sunseeker aren't the only ones laying people off, Princess laid off 300 last year. And according to SS themselves the layoffs are temporary - probably for cashflow, which seems to be the norm after these takeovers.

Because I can't find similar figures for SS (when I have time I will investigate). I appreciate they're different companies, but I have heard (without backup) that SS export a lot to the States.

This may be the case, but the plural of anecdote is not data and by your own admission, this is not a current observation. As I say above, I will investigate further.

Edit: And with a bit more effort, I found this. It's not dated, but the web page was first published in December 2023, so it's pretty recent. 99% exported. Even more than Princess.
View attachment 187538

And this from 2021, so not just one year.
View attachment 187539
And one from 2007 quoting the same 99% as in 2023. I think that's case closed.

I still think you are mudding up where they are berthed the 99 % or 95 % figure with who buys them .
That 99 % ( yes it greater than the 2005 95 % bcz they are bigger or trended upwards size wise )

Let’s face it a £15 M 120 SS is gonna look out of place in Grimsby, the businesses who do the on shore food process , the owners , Brits will ( if they buy one ) keep it abroad .

Cos it’s “ exported “ doesn’t mean it’s NOT funded by a Brit …..just means it not berthed in home waters .

The clue is in the name Sun####### .

Anyhow for the reasons I have given ……this time ( without getting mega political and getting 8ollocked by the mods ) normal a change of U.K. gov certainly historically have made knack all difference to S/Skr plc .

But this time it will , already has .

 

[prestomg27]

For France:

Employer cost of a gross salary of 25K per year is 35.3K
Net salary (before income tax) for employee 19.5K (what he sees on his monthly pay slip).
At 25K per year he will probably not be paying income tax.

NB 35 hour week.

It is more expensive to employ people in france. Ive worked there for the last 7 years until i retired early this year but productivity is much higher than in Engl and which offsets it.

People have much more leisure time which might partly explain why the marine market is more bouyant.

 

[Portofino]

@ Clash
Re export to the states or where ever .
David Beckham bought a Ferretti group boat a Riva and it was exported from Italy to Miami .
But behind that is a Brit buyer . Ok he bought an Italian boat , but it’s actually not an American who bought it .It’s just currently berthed there .

See how the end destination number is pretty meaningless .

A one show I was shown round a S/Skr 120 with the then owner who was a Brit and boat was destined for Mexico of all places . He was a serial buyer . Was his 4 th from sunny .

 

[Blueboatman]

The UK boat builders need to either heavily automate and design for manufacture to improve productivity and make it easier to get through periods of weaker sales or off shore the manufacturing to where labour is cheaper. Or actually both.
No one can operate a competitive manufacturing business using 1980s methods and systems. Nobody.
Beneteau et al. do do "well" out of hurricanes, that's because they make popular good value (relatively) boats and sell loads of them. So when a hurricane happens Benny boats are a significant proportion of wrecked boats. The hurricane is bad news the real sales success is product and process.

Indeed
The ‘ go to’ production process for anything from a repro classic car knob to a new hull moulding for a gen Z seems to be completely ‘ hands off’! cad/3d/laser/resin infusion/robot assembly.. break it or sink it? Print a replacement .. and add more electronic control of everything !
But does that make a luxury yacht a gadget or something that will age beautifully? I dunno

 

[westernman]

Indeed
The ‘ go to’ production process for anything from a repro classic car knob to a new hull moulding for a gen Z seems to be completely ‘ hands off’! cad/3d/laser/resin infusion/robot assembly.. break it or sink it? Print a replacement .. and add more electronic control of everything !
But does that make a luxury yacht a gadget or something that will age beautifully? I dunno

Go to 7:52 in this video why you do not want to do thinks in the traditional way any longer.
The way that fits together would take forever if done traditionally.

 

[Blueboatman]

Go to 7:52 in this video why you do not want to do thinks in the traditional way any longer.
The way that fits together would take forever if done traditionally.

And he is STILL dependent on the length , quality, availability and price of the timber.. and rule of thumb says add 25% wastage too.
That is a great video, thank you

 

[benjenbav]

I still think you are mudding up where they are berthed the 99 % or 95 % figure with who buys them .
That 99 % ( yes it greater than the 2005 95 % bcz they are bigger or trended upwards size wise )

Let’s face it a £15 M 120 SS is gonna look out of place in Grimsby, the businesses who do the on shore food process , the owners , Brits will ( if they buy one ) keep it abroad .

Cos it’s “ exported “ doesn’t mean it’s NOT funded by a Brit …..just means it not berthed in home waters .

The clue is in the name Sun####### .

Anyhow for the reasons I have given ……this time ( without getting mega political and getting 8ollocked by the mods ) normal a change of U.K. gov certainly historically have made knack all difference to S/Skr plc .

But this time it will , already has .

We are blessed/cursed to live in interesting times?

 

[kashurst]

And he is STILL dependent on the length , quality, availability and price of the timber.. and rule of thumb says add 25% wastage too.
That is a great video, thank you

One of the reasons for using computers to design stuff is to make it easy to assemble with little labour AND to reduce waste of materials. 25% waste is horrific. Once the components have been designed you then use another computer programme to assess the incoming materials to decide which bits are produced from what lumps of wood, plastic etc. all the tubes, pipes, wires etc are cut to the correct length, not a foot or two longer then modified during the build process with a hacksaw. The waste is then ideally sold or collected for free to another company as a feed stock for something else.

 

[kashurst]

@ Clash
Re export to the states or where ever .
David Beckham bought a Ferretti group boat a Riva and it was exported from Italy to Miami .
But behind that is a Brit buyer . Ok he bought an Italian boat , but it’s actually not an American who bought it .It’s just currently berthed there .

See how the end destination number is pretty meaningless .

A one show I was shown round a S/Skr 120 with the then owner who was a Brit and boat was destined for Mexico of all places . He was a serial buyer . Was his 4 th from sunny .

Beckham was born in the UK. He has homes all over the world. I have no idea where he is tax domiciled but I seriously doubt it's the mainland UK.
He did buy a Riva. Did he use his own money? Almost certainly not. Does He care about UK taxation? Unlikely.

 

[Portofino]

Beckham was born in the UK. He has homes all over the world. I have no idea where he is tax domiciled but I seriously doubt it's the mainland UK.
He did buy a Riva. Did he use his own money? Almost certainly not. Does He care about UK taxation? Unlikely.

What point are you making ?

He has two U.K. properties that we know of Holland Park / Cotswolds, a U.K. passport and his farther was a U.K. guy born in the U.K. + many other ties in the U.K. It not where you spend your time these days .
To loose U.K. domicile you have to sever U.K. ties not expand them .

The point I was illustrating was the 95% or is it 99 % export rate of S/Skr the destination isn’t necessary in this case America by Riva purchased by an American . Beckham is a U.K. PP holder .

Clash was making out with Priny exporting 95 % that the Brits accounted for only 5% ….if I understood his posts correctly?

Most S/Skr owners in the Cote d Azur from my experience were Brits , Ok due to proximity to Monaco a few camped up there , but by far the greatest majority had economic activity in the U.K. behind the funding of said boat and now exposed , categorised as having “ broad shoulders “ and will one way or another end up paying more to U.K. Gov .
Remember, reiterating I am not say a collapse of the reported 150 units sold just as previously illustrated a handful .
3 or 4 of £8 to £15 M or what ever ( you do the maths ) of the cash flow of a £400 m t/o to see the effect .

If it ends up more then it’s really bad news for sunny and Prinny …..unintended consequence of gov policy .

Time will tell .

How you can sit there and say U.K. Gov policy [ THIS TIME ] will have no effect is barmy . Where are they getting the additional money from ? . The additional taxation is skewed towards enough, not all UK based S/Skr profile customers .Enough to force a few to pass on replacing current or buying a fresh boat .

You already agreed along with every one else the margins in U.K. big ( ish ) boat building are thin . Previous owners like the French Prinny guy has basically subbed the boat side of his empire from other cash cows on / off over his tenure .Not every yr but he has prevented collapse . Wether Dillon Wanders reach has kept S/Skr afloat under his tenure is a moot point . Both I understand have finally got out now .

Anyhow the clocks ticking right now for 2025 S / Skr boats delivered. They must have a pipeline starting from the Autumn show season . Or the more astute Brits hesitating from June placing an order awaiting budget clarity on stuff floating around , speculation between June and Oct around “ wealth tax “ .

Where are the orders , how big is said pipeline?

 

[Clash]

Most S/Skr owners in the Cote d Azur from my experience were Brits , Ok due to proximity to Monaco a few camped up there , but by far the greatest majority had economic activity in the U.K. behind the funding of said boat and now exposed ,

And these are quite clearly NOT exports since the buyer is UK tax domiciled. .Where the boat is delivered is irrelevant.

 

[jakew009]

And these are quite clearly NOT exports since the buyer is UK tax domiciled. .Where the boat is delivered is irrelevant.

I think (and I don’t necessarily agree with it) that Portofino’s point is that regardless of where the sale takes place, most of the British built boats are bought by people who are directly / indirectly affected by UK government policies.

And that makes British builders more affected than say a European builder who has a more international customer base.

To prove the point we’d need to know the split of nationalities of typical British made boat buyers…

 

[Blueboatman]

One of the reasons for using computers to design stuff is to make it easy to assemble with little labour AND to reduce waste of materials. 25% waste is horrific. Once the components have been designed you then use another computer programme to assess the incoming materials to decide which bits are produced from what lumps of wood, plastic etc. all the tubes, pipes, wires etc are cut to the correct length, not a foot or two longer then modified during the build process with a hacksaw. The waste is then ideally sold or collected for free to another company as a feed stock for something else.

Absolutely.
I have a modest rack of hardwood timber bits and lengths, accrued over the years or thrown out at a jobs end.
And some saved teak decking from removing the planks on my last boat-25 years, a terrible short service life for such a slow growing resource ..

When looking to produce a high end, desirable and varnished floating beauty, like a Riva, then if it is assembled from beknuckled bits like a common house roof truss, it is -I would think- a harder sell than using full length, swept rails, deckhouses or visible cabinetry ( etc etc)
Fortunately oak is deemed acceptable for interiors because it is lighter than tropical hardwoods and available readily enough, but things are only going to continue moving in one direction ..
I foresee engineered, machine assembled , curvy interiors to add ‘ value’ to the current boxy flat pack look in so many interior fit outs. Maybe, maybe not !

 

[Clash]

I think (and I don’t necessarily agree with it) that Portofino’s point is that regardless of where the sale takes place, most of the British built boats are bought by people who are directly / indirectly affected by UK government policies.

And that makes British builders more affected than say a European builder who has a more international customer base.

To prove the point we’d need to know the split of nationalities of typical British made boat buyers…

No, I get that. The point I'm making is that both Princess and Sunseeker are reporting around 95% export sales. Now I accept that some of these export sales may well be to Brits who've emigrated to another jurisdiction and therefore are tax domiciled there. But then, they may not be as affected by UK government policies or may be indirectly affected because of (say) UK investments.

But those who are tax domiciled in the UK will not be considered export sales since the transaction takes place in the UK regardless of whether the boat is delivered to Spain or the SoF or wherever.

I think it was @kashurst who said that wealthy people who buy these boats will have the wherewithal to protect themselves and their wealth from just such government policies and will be purposely tax domiciled in another jurisdiction.

There's no way of quantifying this obviously, but it stands to reason that these export sales are actually exports, anything else would be tax (VAT) evasion on the part of the boat builder.

 

[Portofino]

I think (and I don’t necessarily agree with it) that Portofino’s point is that regardless of where the sale takes place, most of the British built boats are bought by people who are directly / indirectly affected by UK government policies.

And that makes British builders more affected than say a European builder who has a more international customer base.

To prove the point we’d need to know the split of nationalities of typical British made boat buyers…

Almost Jake , but not the ‘ most “ line 1 “

A “significant number” , or “even enough percentage “
.

 

[benjenbav]

..,

But those who are tax domiciled in the UK will not be considered export sales since the transaction takes place in the UK regardless of whether the boat is delivered to Spain or the SoF or wherever.

I think it was @kashurst who said that wealthy people who buy these boats will have the wherewithal to protect themselves and their wealth from just such government policies and will be purposely tax domiciled in another jurisdiction.

There's no way of quantifying this obviously, but it stands to reason that these export sales are actually exports, anything else would be tax (VAT) evasion on the part of the boat builder.

I’m pretty sure that the location where VAT is payable on a boat is dependent on where the boat is purchased and where it will be kept rather than on the passport of the purchaser and that it can be perfectly lawful for a UK citizen to buy a boat that is delivered outside UK and not pay VAT.

There’s also a whole piece to be considered in the context of tax around terms such as ‘domicile’, ‘residence’, ‘belonging’ etc.

However, as I’m happy to accept that I’m not the smartest person in the room, I couldn’t begin to explain exactly how this might be so.

 

[Portofino]

No, I get that. The point I'm making is that both Princess and Sunseeker are reporting around 95% export sales. Now I accept that some of these export sales may well be to Brits who've emigrated to another jurisdiction and therefore are tax domiciled there. But then, they may not be as affected by UK government policies or may be indirectly affected because of (say) UK investments.

But those who are tax domiciled in the UK will not be considered export sales since the transaction takes place in the UK regardless of whether the boat is delivered to Spain or the SoF or wherever.

I think it was @kashurst who said that wealthy people who buy these boats will have the wherewithal to protect themselves and their wealth from just such government policies and will be purposely tax domiciled in another jurisdiction.

There's no way of quantifying this obviously, but it stands to reason that these export sales are actually exports, anything else would be tax (VAT) evasion on the part of the boat builder.

This is where we disagree.
Export sales in this case means they end up in sunny climates. This has always been the case with S/Skr .

As far as VAT evasion ….there isn’t any .Those Brits who use there boats outside the U.K. ( sunny climates ) obey the user state fiscal rules .
The major event of Jan 2020 indeed has enabled Brit buyers who for eg Berth the new boat in the EU to avoid VAT or it’s equivalent duty regardless actually where it’s manufactured . This VAT thing washes through this change of Gov Q on S/S/kr we are discussing. It’s already embedded , neutral if you like .

It would have been a boost at its inception arguably slightly in terms for the same outlay the Brit prospect could buy a bigger boat . Chuck that 20 % he would have paid to the then U.K. Gov pre 2020 into Sunseekers for something bigger. Or made the saving . Assuming none charter hassle which many are btw .

Eg a Brit buying a £8 M S/Skr and basing it in Cannes , or a San Lorenzo berthed in say typically Antibes ( large berth availability)

Kashurts initial post imho describes the next group of boat buyers ,a few steps up , the metal boat owners spending 100 s of £M s . They aren’t currently U.K. boat builder customers .

It’s the few Brits who’s main economic activity is U.K. based who will be effected by current Gov ….those folks .Only takes a handful. You don’t seriously think they form 1% of Prinny and only 5 % of S/Skr sales ?


The word “ export “ in terms of boat building means where it used is different from where it manufactured …..bcz they move csn and do float off .

Your inference it s bcz they are bought by ( in this S/Skr / Prinny context ) folks who berth them abroad the buyers must all 99 % or what ever be foreigners is incorrect.

We will have to agree to disagree on this .

Feels like I have done this to death . Let’s wait and see in 2025 what happens.

I am off to Switzerland for the next 3 months winter sporting .
I will pop back in here occasionally time permitting guys .

Cheers all .

 

[Clash]

This is where we disagree.
Export sales in this case means they end up in sunny climates. This has always been the case with S/Skr .

This is not export sales in an accounting sense. And when Sunseeker and Princess report export sales in their accounts, they do not include sales to UK residents delivered abroad. I can keep explaining this, I clearly can't make you understand it.

As far as VAT evasion ….there isn’t any .Those Brits who use there boats outside the U.K. ( sunny climates ) obey the user state fiscal rules .
The major event of Jan 2020 indeed has enabled Brit buyers who for eg Berth the new boat in the EU to avoid VAT or it’s equivalent duty regardless actually where it’s manufactured . This VAT thing washes through this change of Gov Q on S/S/kr we are discussing. It’s already embedded , neutral if you like .

Does sir require dressing on his word salad?