Cornish Crabber

[Greenheart]

Thanks Photodog.

Cheers. All clear now.

The thing is though, boats are almost always the coveted reward for a lot of hard work or saving; and no yachts are really cheap, so having achieved what it's going to cost, why do so many choose such dull rewards? I really don't intend to offend BenJenBav owners (but they know it's true). Crabbers are individual in a world where that's kinda rare...

Anybody know why the little Cornish Cormorant went out of production?

 

[photodog]

Cheers. All clear now.

The thing is though, boats are almost always the coveted reward for a lot of hard work or saving; and no yachts are really cheap, so having achieved what it's going to cost, why do so many choose such dull rewards? I really don't intend to offend BenJenBav owners (but they know it's true)?

Same reason folks buy big leather sofas from DFS, or A new Ford, or anything from Primark or Asda or go on holiday to the Costa del whatever...

The value of luxury and reward is set by society.. not the individual.... people are at their happiest when their apparent lifestyle is equal to or superior to their neighbors.. (There was a study recently...) so we desire a big AWB not because of its superiority but because of our perception of its impact on our status in the pack.

Well... alot of people do anyways odviously.

 

[Greenheart]

It CAN be done...

That 'dull-boat' explanation sounds very likely, Photodog. I'm delighted to be different.

If I'm honest, I'd like a tatty old Fisher 30, totally redraw the accommodation - none of that '5/6 berths' nonsense - more like 2 berths and a decent size galley and crapper/shower.

I've had a nuts idea for years, that the mainmast and mainsail from a Fisher 34 could go through the wheelhouse roof on the 30, and the existing 30's mainmast, minus mainsail, could move forward, through the big forehatch...making...a staysail schooner. Maybe.

Well, those boats could do with a few more square feet of canvas. And, with a bowsprit, and some time spent lining up her new centre of effort and CLR, she'd steer okay. I hope.

With my bizarre genius, I needn't rely on Cornish Crabbers. Still, they'd have been my first choice, and many others' too, I believe.

 

[DownWest]

The Cormorant is now being built by Seashell boats, run by Roger Dongrays stepson. CC stopped selling it as lack of demand at the price. And they went bust by trying to get into the mainstream with a takeover of a modern design.
I asked SJ for his reasons, as it sounded like he was calling any Shrimper buyer a bad seaman. Over a thousand of them, not counting used boat buyers. And the OP's friends obviously think they are Ok after (still) owning the CC24.
Still, SJ explained it well and things like guardrails on 20ish footers are much a matter of opinion, I am not fitting them on my CH21 (thanks for the pic!).

But what do I know, building a gaffer and driving an Espace.......

The large cockpit/cuddy cabin CC 30 gaff sloop is moored in a nearby harbour. It was for sale at near the price of the s/hand 24 in the original post. No sign on it last time so perhaps it sold.

 

[Greenheart]

I meant no offence to Espace-owners/drivers, either! Very practical choice and safe, too. I'd just prefer an XK8...maybe I can grind the roof off the girlfriend's Micra, and get the motor from an ancient Range Rover...

My abiding memory of the Shrimper, is sailing a Topper past Cobnor Point twenty years back in a force two, and being amazed at how the Shrimper fifty yards away could be going so slowly! Very cute boats though.

 

[cutofherjib]

That 'dull-boat' explanation sounds very likely, Photodog. I'm delighted to be different.

If I'm honest, I'd like a tatty old Fisher 30, totally redraw the accommodation - none of that '5/6 berths' nonsense - more like 2 berths and a decent size galley and crapper/shower.

I've had a nuts idea for years, that the mainmast and mainsail from a Fisher 34 could go through the wheelhouse roof on the 30, and the existing 30's mainmast, minus mainsail, could move forward, through the big forehatch...making...a staysail schooner. Maybe.

Well, those boats could do with a few more square feet of canvas. And, with a bowsprit, and some time spent lining up her new centre of effort and CLR, she'd steer okay. I hope.

With my bizarre genius, I needn't rely on Cornish Crabbers. Still, they'd have been my first choice, and many others' too, I believe.

I hope someone chooses to buy my friend's boat then

 

[Ubergeekian]

I hope someone chooses to buy my friend's boat then

I'd recommend Boatshed. I bought Jumblie through them and I'm in the process of listing the Jouster (no reasonable offer refused) - they seem like a generally efficient bunch and their standard 50+ photo websites give far more detail about the boat than any other broker I've seen.

 

[Crabber24]

I hope someone chooses to buy my friend's boat then

Don't you worry, the next proud owner is out there somewhere.

I'm not a retired admiral, not inexperienced, nor have I a shed load of money to throw around. I have a mk1 Crabber24, decent examples of which can be found in the £12-17K range. Yes, a niche boat that is the love of my life and appeals to me in the same way as old citroen cars and AppleMac computers have always done. Isn't it great that we are not all the same....

 

[Seajet]

From observation, many, many owners of AWBs are extremely averse to pulling the two pieces of string required to put their roller-reefed main and jib into operation. Even the slight additional complexity of gaff rig would sent them away screaming, and schooners/ketches double the perceived difficulty again.

I'm afraid the bulk of the market for new boats is clearly for wipe-clean motorsailers (not that they call them motorsailers) and not for anything requiring skill or time to operate.

Ubergeekian,

I very sadly think you are right!

How the hell do we get novices to appreciate REAL boats ?! I don't go along with mandatory certificates & exams, maybe force-feeding a diet of Arthur Ransome, Chay Blythe, Alec Rose, Francis Chichester - ( now in my view 'The Lonely Sea And The Sky ' SHOULD be mandatory reading, whether setting off in an aeroplane, boat or just to adulthood ! ).

Meanwhile, I truly hope it's not left to ageing gits like me / us to look at a boat, comment on what sweet lines and guess who the designer was...

 

[semisimple]

Beautiful boats - I'd buy one like a shot if I could...

I think I know the mentality, I've got a few friends who've learnt to sail on AWB's in the Solent over the last few years and are so used to the 'facilities' on these boats and the paraphernalia that goes with them that without a windlass, a self tailing winch, a bunch of clutches within easy reach of the cockpit, an autopilot, a wheel they panic (you should have seen the face when I first introduced a friend to a boat with a tiller on).

Heck I had a lot of trouble persuading one to anchor overnight, he wanted a marina, and it had to be a posh one.

 

[Greenheart]

Better boats make better crews

That certainly is tragic, Semisimple.

What I can't work out, is why the sailor's tasks which I like - a certain amount of traditional challenge and interest, which rewards know-how (whether it's tallow in the lead & line, or lining-up landmarks for a transit on the chart, or adding weight to an anchor rode, or having to deal with throat and peak halyards) - why does learning such simple, useful skills, seem not to appeal to most 21st century yachtsmen?

I frankly despise most marinas, for stealing so much of the self-reliance from their users. I can't greatly respect the bland, push-button sailboats in them, either, nor a considerable percentage of the people who've made those choices.

Maybe there's a magic recipe for forming happy, energetic, intelligent, learned crews, something like:

a) Start in dinghies, so you're not brought-up performing 'escape by diesel';
b) Mooring, not marina berth, so you learn how to row (it's peaceful too);
c) Anchor at least once a week every season (you may enjoy the cash saving as well);
d) Buy binoculars before you buy a plotter (tech's great, but it doesn't beat looking);
e) Buy a boat that wears more than two sails, upwind.

Old designs like the Crabber remind us how vast amounts of sail-power was once available to minimal crews of substantial working vessels, in all weather, using just their knowledge and skill. Most modern plastic boats only remind us why caravans are widely sneered-at.

 

[Ubergeekian]

What I can't work out, is why the sailor's tasks which I like - a certain amount of traditional challenge and interest, which rewards know-how (whether it's tallow in the lead & line, or lining-up landmarks for a transit on the chart, or adding weight to an anchor rode, or having to deal with throat and peak halyards) - why doesn't learning such simple, useful skills, seem not to appeal to most 21st century yachtsmen?

I think it's because sailing has changed over the past thirty years or so from something which appealed to people who like getting there to something which appeals to people who like being there.

Most modern boats are floating caravans, and used as floating caravans. Moving them around is done as easily as possible - generally under power, but maybe with the sails if the wind's right and it's a sunny day. Once you get to the other end you need the telly, the pressurised water, the heating, the fridge and so on, which either means running the engine even longer or sticking the boat in a car park for the night.

Not that there is anything wrong with that ... as long as those of us who enjoy sailing for its own sake and are willing to put up with horrible hardships, like water pumps, in return.

Of course there are plenty of people with Anonymous White Boats who have real adventures in them, just as there are plenty of people with classics who use them as floating holiday homes. Overall, though, modern sailing boats are fundamentally designed for people who don't like sailing much.

 

[westernman]

Overall, though, modern sailing boats are fundamentally designed for people who don't like sailing much.

I agree with that.

What I don't understand is why they don't take it to the logical conclusion and get rid of the mast, sails etc. Make things much less complicated.

 

[semisimple]

That certainly is tragic, Semisimple.

Maybe there's a magic recipe for forming happy, energetic, intelligent, learned crews, something like:

a) Start in dinghies, so you're not brought-up performing 'escape by diesel';
b) Mooring, not marina berth, so you learn how to row (it's peaceful too);
c) Anchor at least once a week every season (you may enjoy the cash saving as well);
d) Buy binoculars before you buy a plotter (tech's great, but it doesn't beat looking);
e) Buy a boat that wears more than two sails, upwind.

Certainly with you on a to c. It's just so easy in the solent to avoid having to anchor or pick up a mooring that people get used to marinas...

I think it's because sailing has changed over the past thirty years or so from something which appealed to people who like getting there to something which appeals to people who like being there.

Great quote from David/Joan Hay along the lines of how they couldn't understand this “modern lunatic urge to go places for the mere sake of arriving".

Good read by the way, their book "The Solent from the Sea: Portsmouth to Portland", sadly out of print for a very long time, but I managed to find a second hand copy.

 

[Greenheart]

All true, I must accept. But there's something perverse here, because, in my view, the biggest feeling of reward available from sailing (for which we are prepared to pay, lots), is surely that which one gets, taking the vessel from one port to another, safely and with no unreasonable delay, without starting the engine?

No boat is likely to be as comfortable as its owner's home...narrow doorways, slender sofas and beds, limited hot water, guaranteed bumps on the head...but using the boat to go somewhere using just strength and skill is exciting at a basic level; whereas if people don't use much skill, and if they motor most of the way, just in order to put up with not very comfortable interiors that never keep still when they get there, and if they use facilities that necessitate the generator running eight hours a day...then they're not achieving a fraction of that basic fulfilment available.

Start 'em in dinghies, I say. It's the only way. I've never grown out of mine. At least, my wallet hasn't yet.

 

[prv]

I agree with everyone here

And I've only taken Kindred Spirit for a night in a marina once in the season I've had her, and that only as one of my crew needed to catch a train. And what with rigging her just after coming back from a 3-week square-rig voyage, she has a few more seizings and servings and leathers than she started with

I *like* having lots of string to play with, and I like the flexibility of having four sails and a peak halyard.

A bit more windward ability is pretty much the only thing I could ask of her for my purposes.

Pete

 

[Twister_Ken]

A bit more windward ability is pretty much the only thing I could ask of her for my purposes.

Pete

Aye, there's the rub.

 

[Coaster]

...there's something perverse here, because, in my view, the biggest feeling of reward available from sailing (for which we are prepared to pay, lots), is surely that which one gets, taking the vessel from one port to another, safely and with no unreasonable delay, without starting the engine?

Perhaps the reason you, and some others here, express confusion or disagreement is that you look at things from a rather narrow perspective. People vary greatly in their attitudes to and the enjoyment derived from boating.

We don't go sailing, we go boating. Our boat serves lots of functions but the two most important are providing a facility to be out on the water and being a reasonably comfortable place to live for 3 - 10 days at a time, 200 miles or more from our home. There are many things we enjoy, including overnight solitary anchorages, wonderful sunsets, exploring little known (to us) coasts, having gannets flying with us, seeing clouds of puffins whirring across the water, and being accompanied by bow riding dolphins.

The idea of not using the engine for close quarters manouvering, setting or weighing anchor, making progress directly to windward or in calm weather etc. would never occur to us. That's what the engine's for. It's at least as important as the sails, probably more so.

So your "biggest reward" is irrelevant to us. I suspect the same is true for at least a few other people.

 

[Greenheart]

I like gannets, too.

Coaster, almost all that you say, I wholeheartedly agree with.

The only point I sought to make, was how much satisfaction there is, from not accepting or in any way relying, on bow-thrusters, generators, powered winches, in-mast reefing etc.

I think you'd admit, the 'boating' you enjoy, is a watered-down version of the necessarily very skilled and rather tough salty business that sailing, fifty years ago, was. And it's surprising - as your words have shown - how little most people are even aware of the satisfaction available from using nothing but knowledge and practice, to achieve what push-buttons and 12v supplies have allowed anyone to do in the 21st century.

I'm a lazy devil, and I like comfort. But I'd feel foolish and weak and ignorant if I needed those expensive, power-hungry systems that allow even a novice to park a sixty-footer without much trouble.

This type of equipment is just like the escalator or elevator - for the seriously unfit or disabled, it's a godsend, and I know very young and very mature family members are able to join in thereby, and that's great. But for those of us who wouldn't have suffered from using the stairs...look what powered walkways and mall-scooters have done to the physique of so many in the U.S.

The parallel is pretty close, I think. You want it easy? That's fine, enjoy it. But don't kid yourself you're half the seaman you'd be, if you really didn't need it easy. Zero offence meant, but it's true, or I wouldn't even think it.

 

[Seajet]

a) Start in dinghies, so you're not brought-up performing 'escape by diesel';
b) Mooring, not marina berth, so you learn how to row (it's peaceful too);
c) Anchor at least once a week every season (you may enjoy the cash saving as well);
d) Buy binoculars before you buy a plotter (tech's great, but it doesn't beat looking);
e) Buy a boat that wears more than two sails, upwind.

DanCrane,

I agree 90 % - if any rules are to be implemented,- in a perfect world - I'd suggest all potential cruiser sailors should have a decent dinghy course involving performance and seamanship issues first !'


Not quite sure about the ' more than 2 sails to windward' though ?