considering buying a classic barge help please

[Gaby]

Hello, and I hope everyone is well and safe. I am new to this and I am in need of some help, please. I am currently selling my family home and considering moving into a boat. I found one which I truly love and obtain as much information about it via the estate agent and have had 2 viewings already. Is a 100-year-old classic barge being sold with mooring rights and freehold ownership of River Bank.

The barge has been very well maintained, the engine changed 2016, boiler / central heating and more work on it has been done recently - It had a service and survey in July this year, so when I asked about how feasible it would be for me to perform my own survey it was mentioned that it wouldn't be feasible due to having to transfer the barge from one place to a completely different location, complicated by the size which financially will make it extremely expensive.

So I have been wondering for the last 2 days on what to do, since I can see the vital importance of having a survey done and wondering if any of you have come across any situation like this? Where you weren't able to perform a survey on a boat prior to buying it? or risks and implications of doing this.

I will greatly appreciate any guidance or advice

Thank you once again

Ana

 

[Gavin E]

The survey can be 'expensive' (get used to that - its a boat....) but it's the buyer who picks up the cost so that shouldn't bother the seller.
Usual procedure is for you to put in an offer, you quibble over price until you agree. Then you pay for survey etc to make sure you're getting what you have been told. You will probably struggle to find boat insurance without a survey.
However...... it might be possible to contact the people who did the survey and ask if they would be prepared (for a fee) to re issue the same survey in your name (giving you a current survey for insurance) and stand by the condition of the boat being the same now as it was then. If the surveyor is still confident in the boat to do this, that might be good enough for you too?
That's what we did, but that was on a boat where the survey was only two weeks old and it was a trusted surveyor.
We have gone through the buying and surveying process before when the surveyor found major engine issues that meant we pulled out of the purchase. It cost us money, but saved us a lot more. If your seller won't go through the usual process I wouldn't chance my money.

 

[Just_sayin']

If I was selling a boat that I had recently had a survey on I would include that survey as part of the sales pack.

 

[Portland Billy]

Tread carefully.
Check when, where, and by whom the survey was done.
Ensure the boat was lifted or slipped to enable a thorough bottom and sterngear inspection.
If all this is in order and verified follow with your own inspection and trial.

 

[Chris_d]

I would tread very carefully and as others have suggested possibly have the previous survey signed over to you.
However I assume this is a substantial size barge so its not a simple matter of just lifting or slipping it out, likely it will require a specialist dry dock and those are getting fairly hard to find now (EA have just closed two!). Cost will be 1000's not 100's.
I'd check the previous survey and ensure it was done out of the water, assuming its a steel boat the remaining hull thickness should have been measured and the amount of corrosion assessed being the crucial factors and the most important reason to have it lifted. The fact you have been advised against a survey would already be ringing alarm bells for me.

 

[Scapegoat]

Have you checked land title with the Land Registry and residential mooring rights and searches with the local authority? (Just because you own riverside property doesn’t give residential mooring rights ) it may be wise to have a solicitor who has knowledge of such matters to check it out.
You’ll also need an accommodation licence from the EA for mooring structures in or over the river, a houseboat licence from the EA for a powered houseboat and a Boat Safety Certificate.
Also, electricity provision and sewage disposal services - get them checked.
And what is the land access? If it goes over someone else’s property then make sure it is properly documente.
what happens if the river rises in the winter? Are there adequate structures in place to ensure safety and how would you reach it if the land floods?

 

[oldgit]

The condition of the hull is paramount, especially as it will be you home.
Everthing else is secondary.
The history of the hull is important, steel or iron,, presume it was working barge, most/all were worked to death before being sold off by the owners usually for scrap.
Some were rescued , usually on budget, with other remedial work being carried out over the years.
Any proper survey would consist of the hull being hauled out and the thickness of the hull plating checked against what would have been the original thickness.
Sterngear would also need to have been checked. Rudder, stern glands etc . What condition is propeller and any prop shaft wear

Its usually around the water line that most of the metal would be lost and sometimes extra plating would have been added, this was the cheapest method of repair.

Have you made inquiries about insurance.
The insurance company may demand a survey by you before quoting.
It will need another hull / mantainence survey in few years time, is there anywhere local that can do this now, or in the future or will it have to be moved/towed to another area capable of handling something of this size
Will you be using LPG cook and especially heat in the winter.
There are numorous barge and livaboard forums around to glean details of the rewards and perils of buying an old "classic" hulls.

My brother lived aboard an old tug. The James Ward. He became an expert on grinding/welding and replating steel hulls simply due to cost of employing folk to do the job.
When the boat was retired having been worked to death, the tug company removed all the iron ballast for reuse or to be sold on for scrap, the next owner had replaced it with concrete.
The concrete all had to be broken out before the boat could be replated.
The James Ward in better days.
Now moored near Brentford.

 

[Plum]

Hello, and I hope everyone is well and safe. I am new to this and I am in need of some help, please. I am currently selling my family home and considering moving into a boat. I found one which I truly love and obtain as much information about it via the estate agent and have had 2 viewings already. Is a 100-year-old classic barge being sold with mooring rights and freehold ownership of River Bank.

The barge has been very well maintained, the engine changed 2016, boiler / central heating and more work on it has been done recently - It had a service and survey in July this year, so when I asked about how feasible it would be for me to perform my own survey it was mentioned that it wouldn't be feasible due to having to transfer the barge from one place to a completely different location, complicated by the size which financially will make it extremely expensive.

So I have been wondering for the last 2 days on what to do, since I can see the vital importance of having a survey done and wondering if any of you have come across any situation like this? Where you weren't able to perform a survey on a boat prior to buying it? or risks and implications of doing this.

I will greatly appreciate any guidance or advice

Thank you once again

Ana

I once came close to buying a freehold houseboat plot that had bankside access but luckily I spoke to the local authority planning department who said there was no right to put any sort of residential vessel or structure on the site and if I applied they would never grant any rights. Mooring rights alone are not enough if you are going to live on the barge most of the year without mooving.

 

[westernman]

The condition of the hull is paramount, especially as it will be you home.
Everthing else is secondary.
The history of the hull is important, steel or iron,, presume it was working barge, most/all were worked to death before being sold off by the owners usually for scrap.
Some were rescued , usually on budget, with other remedial work being carried out over the years.
Any proper survey would consist of the hull being hauled out and the thickness of the hull plating checked against what would have been the original thickness.
Sterngear would also need to have been checked. Rudder, stern glands etc . What condition is propeller and any prop shaft wear

Its usually around the water line that most of the metal would be lost and sometimes extra plating would have been added, this was the cheapest method of repair.

Have you made inquiries about insurance.
The insurance company may demand a survey by you before quoting.
It will need another hull / mantainence survey in few years time, is there anywhere local that can do this now, or in the future or will it have to be moved/towed to another area capable of handling something of this size
Will you be using LPG cook and especially heat in the winter.
There are numorous barge and livaboard forums around to glean details of the rewards and perils of buying an old "classic" hulls.

My brother lived aboard an old tug. The James Ward. He became an expert on grinding/welding and replating steel hulls simply due to cost of employing folk to do the job.
When the boat was retired having been worked to death, the tug company removed all the iron ballast for reuse or to be sold on for scrap, the next owner had replaced it with concrete.
The concrete all had to be broken out before the boat could be replated.
The James Ward in better days.
Now moored near Brentford.

View attachment 142044

I disagree strongly with your second sentence.
The boat can be fixed. But if you cannot live on the boat permanently on the mooring as you want to, then that is a serious problem.

I would get a solicitor with experience in these things to draw up the sale agreement. It should include something along the lines that you have mooring rights to permanently keep the boat there and live on it and if this turns out not to be the case, that the sale will become null and void and that the seller will put you back into the pre purchase state (or some such legalese which means the seller reimburses you all expenses as well as the sale price).

Reluctance of the seller or his agent/solicitor to agree to such a sale document means you should run a mile. (Or more).

 

[Gibeltarik]

It is essential that you commission your own survey, by an experienced barge surveyor, out of water - and have clear title confirmed by a solicitor to the mooring and its residential use. Otherwise you are paying for a pig in a poke!

See www.barges.org

 

[LittleSister]

Lots of good advice in previous posts.

Usual procedure is for you to put in an offer, you quibble over price until you agree. Then you pay for survey etc to make sure you're getting what you have been told. You will probably struggle to find boat insurance without a survey.

Just to clarify, do not agree any price except subject to survey and subject to legal checks & searches regarding the land and any residential mooring rights and any rights of access (on foot and by car) that come with it.

Check out the cost and conditions of getting/renewing a licence for the vessel to be on the waterway (including Boat Safety Scheme survey).

Do not rely on any survey carried out on behalf of anyone else unless and until you get the benefit of the survey signed over to you. This will likely involve you paying a fee to the surveyor who undertook it. In practice, there is little likelihood you will be able to claim against surveyor on anything they missed or misrepresented in a survey, but going through the original surveyor (and do check what qualifications/professional memberships/professional indemnity insurance the surveyor carries) will give you some comfort that they, and the report you are shown, is bona fide. (I can call myself a surveyor (but I'm not) and give you can give you a survey report on letterhead paper (but it could all be fiction or uninformed nonsense).

Consider very carefully the significant constraints and costs of living in such a situation, and how that would fit with your character, lifestyle and means.

You are dealing with a potential financial disaster of epic proportions. Tread very warily. Do not let your enthusiasm and dreams get the better of you. If in any doubt at all, or if you get a bad feeling about any aspect of the matter, walk away.

This is one situation where it would be better to regret not having gone through with it (you will at least have a nice tale/memory of how 'I nearly bought this boat once . . .'), than to regret doing it.

 

[Outinthedinghy]

Exactly.
Be very careful. Living on boats is totally different to living in houses.

I have lived on boats since I was 20 (28 years so far) always wanted to as a kid and it is "just right". Thats me done for. All my boats can be gone within ten minutes if needed. I have had narrow boats barges and cruisers. Relatively small boats with working engines.

But... This is often not the case for someone who has been a property owne as they may tend to want larger boats for the interior space. It can go badly wrong as suggested above. Not always but if it does and it is a big boat hard to move it can be a nightmare.

In the enthusiasm it is easy to oversee basic things like access from land to boat and in the case of barges access from steering box / wheelhouse into living areas. On a lot of barges the access is like a loft ladder. This is not comfortable for regular use but one may not notice it initially. Lavatory arrangements can be " interesting"

Estate agents selling boats is dodgy.

Good luck if you do go for it but every step you take should be a careful one.

 

[Gibeltarik]

You would find this book useful! Recently revised and updated it also includes an Appendix specifically covering the purchase of residential moorings in UK.

 

[srm]

Lots of essential advice above. Just one point to add:
As the barge has an engine it can presumably be moved under its own power. What is its length? If over 24 metres you will probably need a commercial qualification to be in command.

 

[Keith 66]

Any survey "helpfully" provided by a seller or broker is not worth the paper it is written on.
It is likely to be a survey for insurance for the owner & is a contract between them. It will offer no liability whatsoever to a buyer. So if anything goes wrong which on a 100 year old barge is likely you will have no comeback on the seller or his surveyor whatsoever.
I have seen quite a few cases where people have bought boats , One 31ft yacht, "The owner had a recent survey so i thought i would save the money by not having my own one done".
A week later the boat nearly sinks & it transpires the keel is falling off. The buyer has to fork out 30% of the value of the boat on major structural repairs. He went back to the seller & the answer was "Tough, not my problem".

 

[oldgit]

If the boat does not have some security of tenure it will be virtually impossible to find another mooring anywhere , especially somewhere "nice" .
Unless miles out on some desolate marsh appeals ?

 

[Keith 66]

Miles out on a desolate marsh, Said marsh certainly owned or controlled by somebody , Wildfowling club, Local Authority, RSPB, or Crown foreshore, & almost certainly an SSSI or SPA etc etc, Natural England will take a dim view of a large boat just pitching up.

 

[clyst]

A pictures of the barge would be good so we know what size type etc we are talking about. Is she wood ? Steel? Iron ? Is it an ex commercial working boat ? Narrowboat ? Widebeam ? .........

 

[Richard10002]

A pictures of the barge would be good so we know what size type etc we are talking about. Is she wood ? Steel? Iron ? Is it an ex commercial working boat ? Narrowboat ? Widebeam ? .........

My guess is that Ana has given up on this. I went as far as looking at The Land Registry to the point where you pay £3 or £6 for some info on the land. It doesnt seem to be registered, but other boats on the same patch are moored on registered land. I would have been tempted to spend the £6 on the neighbouring boat/land info but Ana wasnt seen after 3rd September.

See here for the discussion on canalworld:

considering moving into a boat but need advice

 

[oldgit]

Miles out on a desolate marsh, Said marsh certainly owned or controlled by somebody , Wildfowling club, Local Authority, RSPB, or Crown foreshore, & almost certainly an SSSI or SPA etc etc, Natural England will take a dim view of a large boat just pitching up.

.....................was actually referring to some of the places that are used to moor houseboats,singly or in small groups on private land, all with what appear with mains services provided.
A recent bit of time wasting on Google Earth, while house hunting, revealed numorous barges and other large craft pressed into service as homes way out on marshes on the south banks of the Medway.
Most seemed to have taken advantage of the brick and clay workings of long past.