gunnarsilins
New member
What is the status of a canoe, or a rowed dinghy in relation to boats under sail or engine?
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Col regs?
- Thread starter gunnarsilins
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Vulnerable?
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girlracer
New member
Who cares.........Use your common sense, does the word restricted ability to manover mean anything to you?
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tome
New member
Hi Girlracer
Welcome to the forum <ability to manover> sounds very racy!
Regards
Tom
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Welcome to the forum <ability to manover> sounds very racy!
Regards
Tom
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duncan
Active member
a more direct answer would be that they have priority over both.
I suspect that the only thing that they don't have priority over is a swimmer but the col regs don't mention them....../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
As mentioned above they are vunerable which would in a normal society result in everyone else giving them a wide berth and avoiding the effects of wash - but often means they are simply ignored as insignificant.
Oh and for those not recognising the function of the smiley above - yes there are craft definitions that they would have to give priority to including, but not limited to, vessels engaged in fishing, anchored, and power vessels constrained by draft under certain circumstances.
Enjoy your boating
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I suspect that the only thing that they don't have priority over is a swimmer but the col regs don't mention them....../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
As mentioned above they are vunerable which would in a normal society result in everyone else giving them a wide berth and avoiding the effects of wash - but often means they are simply ignored as insignificant.
Oh and for those not recognising the function of the smiley above - yes there are craft definitions that they would have to give priority to including, but not limited to, vessels engaged in fishing, anchored, and power vessels constrained by draft under certain circumstances.
Enjoy your boating
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gunnarsilins
New member
Common sense...
...does in fact mean something to me! The issue was not if I have the legal right to run somenoe down or not.
'Who cares'....well I do, because I´m curious, if you don´t, why bother making a post?
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...does in fact mean something to me! The issue was not if I have the legal right to run somenoe down or not.
'Who cares'....well I do, because I´m curious, if you don´t, why bother making a post?
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hlb
RIP
Even if there ia a Reg for canoeists? Is the canoeist aware of them. And can he paddle fast enough to get out of the way of my 20 odd knots!!. If he cant, just sink the bugger......../forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
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Haydn
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Haydn
duncan
Active member
Re: Common sense...
go get 'em tiger........not a great first post was it.
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go get 'em tiger........not a great first post was it.
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Cornishman
New member
Cor - I like the sound of restricted in ability to "manover". Sounds very sexy.
If you meant 'manoeuvre' then I suggest you take a look at Rule 3 (g) for the proper definition. I don't think either would qualify under "nature of her work" so common sense might let you down if you don't know the Rules.
I reckon that a canoeist would be in the same bracket as a vessel under oars, which although not listed in the Rule 3 list of definitions is mentioned under Rule 25 (d) (ii) "may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels,........." so most of us treat them as such. Bit difficult to tell which tack they are on, though.
>Who cares< I think you would if you ran one over causing death or serious injury. The court surely would.
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If you meant 'manoeuvre' then I suggest you take a look at Rule 3 (g) for the proper definition. I don't think either would qualify under "nature of her work" so common sense might let you down if you don't know the Rules.
I reckon that a canoeist would be in the same bracket as a vessel under oars, which although not listed in the Rule 3 list of definitions is mentioned under Rule 25 (d) (ii) "may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels,........." so most of us treat them as such. Bit difficult to tell which tack they are on, though.
>Who cares< I think you would if you ran one over causing death or serious injury. The court surely would.
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AndrewB
Well-known member
Previous thread.
This question was last batted around a couple of months ago. (<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=358691>HERE</A>).
The consensus then was that the Col Regs aren't specific. The only mentioned of rowed boats is in relation to lights.
This question was last batted around a couple of months ago. (<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=358691>HERE</A>).
The consensus then was that the Col Regs aren't specific. The only mentioned of rowed boats is in relation to lights.
maxxi
New member
Both qualify as power driven vessels so watch the wash.
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Equinox
New member
It does appear that rowing boats and canoes are covered under the Colregs. For instance Rule 3 part (a) states :
The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
Is is not true that canoes and rowing boats are a description of watercraft and a means of transportation on water?
Looking at Rule 25 part d (ii) which states :
A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she will have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted latern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
This appears to state that a rowing boat will display the same lights as a sailing vessel and so the responsibilities between sailing vessels are therefore covered in Rule 12.
If a rowing boat is seen as being a sailing boat then the responsibilities between it and other types of vessels are covered in Rule 18.
Just to confuse things even further, it is not always the case that the Rules have to be followed (Rule 2 part b) :
In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
Making sense or as clear as mud?
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The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
Is is not true that canoes and rowing boats are a description of watercraft and a means of transportation on water?
Looking at Rule 25 part d (ii) which states :
A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she will have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted latern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.
This appears to state that a rowing boat will display the same lights as a sailing vessel and so the responsibilities between sailing vessels are therefore covered in Rule 12.
If a rowing boat is seen as being a sailing boat then the responsibilities between it and other types of vessels are covered in Rule 18.
Just to confuse things even further, it is not always the case that the Rules have to be followed (Rule 2 part b) :
In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
Making sense or as clear as mud?
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peterb
New member
The point about lights is quite significant. At night, another vessel meeting a vessel under oars could well assume that she was a sailing boat, since she shows the same lights. And remember that a vessel under oars could be a replica Greek trireme, or Norse longship; something a little bigger than the average tender.
Presumably a kayak under paddles counts as a vessel under oars?
As Andrew B says, it's been raised before on the forum, and we came to the conclusion that the point wasn't really covered in Colregs. Maybe with the proliferation of replicas, the interest in trans-oceanic rowing, and possible conflicts between other craft and recreational paddlers or rowers, IMO should be asked to consider a new rule in their next revision?
Presumably a kayak under paddles counts as a vessel under oars?
As Andrew B says, it's been raised before on the forum, and we came to the conclusion that the point wasn't really covered in Colregs. Maybe with the proliferation of replicas, the interest in trans-oceanic rowing, and possible conflicts between other craft and recreational paddlers or rowers, IMO should be asked to consider a new rule in their next revision?
duncan
Active member
accepting your point regarding the col regs and oars but pursuing the reference to the same lights as a sailing vessel...would that be a sailing vessel under power or sail? And would the size of the vessel still apply to the lights as it does in the regs?
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LadyInBed
Well-known member
Re: paddle fast enough
A canoe overtook me on Sunday. I was doing 4.5knots, he was doing a good 5
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A canoe overtook me on Sunday. I was doing 4.5knots, he was doing a good 5
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AndrewB
Well-known member
And what about swimmers?
At this year's Dover regatta, some genius had given the yachts the same turning mark as was being used by the long-distance swimmers. Utter chaos, very lucky no-one was hurt.
No mention of them in the Col Regs, not even under lights. People practicing for their cross-channel swim in Dover harbour please note - there is a lot to be said for fluorescent swim caps.
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At this year's Dover regatta, some genius had given the yachts the same turning mark as was being used by the long-distance swimmers. Utter chaos, very lucky no-one was hurt.
No mention of them in the Col Regs, not even under lights. People practicing for their cross-channel swim in Dover harbour please note - there is a lot to be said for fluorescent swim caps.
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peterb
New member
Colregs define a "sailing vessel" as "any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used". A "power-driven vessel" is defined as "any vessel propelled by machinery". So a vessel under sail but propelled by machinery as well (i.e. a motor-sailer) is a power-driven vessel and not a sailing vessel under Colregs.
The question of length can be interesting. Colregs say that "a vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule [i.e. Rule 25] for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision". It can reasonably be argued that under the first half of this requirement the lights to be displayed should be those of a sailing vessel of the same length; a replica trireme over 20m long would have to show separate side and stern lights. But the rule only says "may exhibit"; it doesn't require them to be exhibited, but says that if they aren't then she should carry a torch or lantern. And there is no length limit oon the use of the torch; in theory you could make a rowing boat 100m long and still only be required to show a hand torch "in time to prevent collision"! Most other rules of this either/or type say that the more comprehensive lights should be carried 'where practicable', but this requirement has been omitted (accidentally or deliberately) here.
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The question of length can be interesting. Colregs say that "a vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule [i.e. Rule 25] for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision". It can reasonably be argued that under the first half of this requirement the lights to be displayed should be those of a sailing vessel of the same length; a replica trireme over 20m long would have to show separate side and stern lights. But the rule only says "may exhibit"; it doesn't require them to be exhibited, but says that if they aren't then she should carry a torch or lantern. And there is no length limit oon the use of the torch; in theory you could make a rowing boat 100m long and still only be required to show a hand torch "in time to prevent collision"! Most other rules of this either/or type say that the more comprehensive lights should be carried 'where practicable', but this requirement has been omitted (accidentally or deliberately) here.
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duncan
Active member
thanks for the full explanation - I think you have concluded the same as me; it's a gugle!
However one fact seems evident - the only vessel not 'under sail' that can carry the lights of a 'sailing vessel' under sail is one being propelled by oars.
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However one fact seems evident - the only vessel not 'under sail' that can carry the lights of a 'sailing vessel' under sail is one being propelled by oars.
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