clipping on

[Neeves]

Moderation? Its a bit like wearing a seatbelt, I've never been grateful for one but I wear a seat belt. I wear a LJ in a dinghy, when alone - even though I'm only 200m from shore (and I've never inflated one in anger). I use 2 halyards up a mast. I wear a helmet rock climbing. I don't free climb. I have had a 'Real' MOB. We carry a LR, never inflated one (my father used one in anger).

Sailing is still largely unregulated, it is the choice of the individual or skipper - and long may that last.

BUT - if a go over the side I know the numbers of people that will be impacted. Water Police, Marine Rescue, maybe helicopters, maybe bulk carriers - then wife, children, grandchildren.

Jonathan

 

[NotBirdseye]

.... where's our resident RNLI person when you need them to point out recklessness of not clipping in/wearing life jacket. It's this kind of behaviour that will get us regulated.

 

[geem]

We don't routinely clip on or wear life jackets when sailing. We do routinely wear both at night. We sail as a couple so on night passages we normally only have one of us on watch. The on-watch crew must wear a lifejacket in the cockpit. If they go on deck they must clip on. We reef at the mast so it is normal for us to venture on deck.
I think it is important to stress that not all boats are the same. Our guard wires are bar tight and are 700mm above the deck. The stanchions are solid 1” aluminium spaced closely together and bolted through the aluminium toerail. Its all super strong. We hold on to them going forward when we need to. We have very substantial granny bars at the mast. Jack stays run inboard of the granny bars.
Sat in the cockpit its almost impossible to fall out. You would have to take a running jump to get over the side. A deep centre cockpit with 1 foot wide comings and wide side decks makes it very secure so we don't wear lifejackets during the day unless we are in gale conditions. Our cockpit has numerous handholds due to the mizzen rigging. If we needed to venture forward in boisterous conditions then we would clip on.
If we didnt have our setup then I am sure we would make more use of harness and lifejacket.

 

[dunedin]

I once organised a sailing holiday of five yachts around Corfu. On the last evening one of the yachts trailed some lines over the stern and I, amongst others, swam over to catch the lines. Unfortunately, the skipper had not told the helm to slow down. The force of the water at five knots makes it very difficult to do anything but hold on. I adopted the white water kayakers' approach and turned onto my back and watched the wave form over my head but still leave me able to breathe. With a life jacket on I would have been forced on to my front and had the wave forced down my throat. That's why the manufacturers are changing the designs.

TBH I was scared

Amazed that this thread has got this far without anybody mentioning the major advance that is the back tow lifejacket - which does exactly what mattonsea did manually.

 

[RupertW]

I'm not sure what isn't fun about being clipped in. I mean... you're still sailing. It's like wearing a car seat belt, the seat belt doesn't disturb the fun of driving.

The difference between wearing a sailing jacket with and without harness isn’t so great but the difference between wearing just a pair of boxer shorts with and without a harness is the difference between being relaxed and free in the open air and being chafed and constrained.

 

[RJJ]

And of course the best defence which is to hold on, crawl and bum shuffle around the boat if it's lumpy. No need to scamper around, we aren't racing. Crew are briefed how to clip on and about the risk of going over/being dragged.

Copioussingle point attachments in the cockpit, including one you can reach from in the companionway.

Jackstays designed to pull you inboard, as far as possible. Mine are y-shaped, joining at the mast, then a single line forward.

Then do it. Always when on deck solo; always at night; always when leaving the cockpit in anything but a flat calm.

For me the risk of being dragged to drowning is low given layout of jackstays and other countermeasures. I would discourage anyone from working on the "low side" unless there is someone spotting them; if they really have to, they must rig a leash to the windward side jackstay, there are plenty of of change sheets etc. If there's someone on deck capable of stopping the boat, the dragging is quickly reduced to a MoB recovery, with the person already attached to the boat.

So that said - there is residual risk of someone being dragged, if their tether is too long, and they clipped to the low side and without anyone watching, all counter to boat SOPs. Vs if they don't clip on, without anyone watching, in which case they are overboard and nobody knows. (And no I don't really trust the AIS or Bluetooth proximity triggers etc).

 

[Boathook]

Concerto.
Have you tried to use that ladder? I have a s/s swimming ladder that folds open. The bottom part slightly tucks under the boat when used and makes it quite difficult to climb back on board without a rope fixed well above the ladder to help pull myself on board.

 

[duncan99210]

I’ve been involved in recovering a MOB at the end of their safety line. We got knocked flat off the Casquets at about 0100: the helm went over the back of the boat, I went over from the forward end of the cockpit but wound up being flipped back into the boat.
Without my safety line, I’d have been lost. The helm was recovered by the 2 remaining uninjured crew: I had taken the helm whilst the recovery took place. They had to cut his safety line which had become entangled in something before they could get him back on board.
So what? I’m with the seat belt analogy: the chances are that you’ll be better off with a tether than without. Modern lifejackets with built in harnesses are very comfortable to wear and if used properly will vastly improve your chances of survival.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The difference between wearing a sailing jacket with and without harness isn’t so great but the difference between wearing just a pair of boxer shorts with and without a harness is the difference between being relaxed and free in the open air and being chafed and constrained.

I have sailed towards Greenwich from the Isle of Dogs on my firstyacht some 36 years ago. At that time falling in suggested a full medical due the state of the water. I doubt the climate has improved enough there due to global warming that I would ever sail just in boxers except maybe a few days in late June and even then covering up might be prudent to avoid sunburn

 

[RupertW]

I have sailed towards Greenwich from the Isle of Dogs on my firstyacht some 36 years ago. At that time falling in suggested a full medical due the state of the water. I doubt the climate has improved enough there due to global warming that I would ever sail just in boxers except maybe a few days in late June and even then covering up might be prudent to avoid sunburn

?
If I sailed near home I’d agree but I’m glad I sail a lot further south so most days are warm. Even when I sailed along the UK south coast there were still a few shorts days.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The drowning when clipped on issue can be managed by having more central jackstays and better designed jackstays so that you cant actually fall overboard. It takes a bit of thought and planning but there are articles on jackstay design that show how this can be done. If often quote Attainable Adventure Cruising these days, they did a a series of articles on this subject, it is a subscription service www.morganscloud.com, is the web address. The USA Practical Sailor has also discussed this topic, they usually do very good research on any matter. For example, on a centre cockpit, you can have a bar down the side to clip onto but use short tethers on that bar. Some suggestions have custom tethers attached and you clip onto the relevant one.

 

[Daverw]

Slight thread drift but I’m amazed at the number you see especially on youtube clambering around and in dinghies with ruck sacks on back, assume they all know you cannot swim at all with one on and god help you trying to get it off if you fall in.

 

[RupertW]

Slight thread drift but I’m amazed at the number you see especially on youtube clambering around and in dinghies with ruck sacks on back, assume they all know you cannot swim at all with one on and god help you trying to get it off if you fall in.

I do exactly that and never have any life jackets on in dinghies and the rucksacks can be very heavy indeed after a shopping trip. But meh, I have no doubt that we could take it off if we fell in. And we do fall in sometimes, especially after a night out, but so far without much in the rucksack, so no problem reaching the swimming ladder.

 

[Concerto]

Concerto.
Have you tried to use that ladder?

If you look at the photo of the ladder you will see there is a red hand hold at the top of the rope ladder to help steady yourself. Just to the right is the boarding ladder to step on and climb on board. The boarding ladder will be better and stronger than any rope. This rope ladder is to start the process of getting out of the water. My experiece of trying to rescue a man showed that you need to have an initial step about 4ft deep the water. My boarding ladder was only about 18" in the water and he could not get enough purchase on his foot to be able to use the power of his legs to lift his body weight out of the water. His arms were not strong enough for doing this either.

I have a s/s swimming ladder that folds open. The bottom part slightly tucks under the boat when used and makes it quite difficult to climb back on board without a rope fixed well above the ladder to help pull myself on board.

It sounds as if you need some form of a stop on your bathing ladder to stop it bending under the boat. This would improve its usability as your legs will be more efficient in lifting your body weight and keeping your balance.

 

[Daverw]

I do exactly that and never have any life jackets on in dinghies and the rucksacks can be very heavy indeed after a shopping trip. But meh, I have no doubt that we could take it off if we fell in. And we do fall in sometimes, especially after a night out, but so far without much in the rucksack, so no problem reaching the swimming ladder.

It’s not that easy to remove, ive tried it on expedition leader training, standard practice to unclip when walking groups are on tow paths

 

[25931]

Moderation? Its a bit like wearing a seatbelt, I've never been grateful for one but I wear a seat belt. I wear a LJ in a dinghy, when alone - even though I'm only 200m from shore (and I've never inflated one in anger). I use 2 halyards up a mast. I wear a helmet rock climbing. I don't free climb. I have had a 'Real' MOB. We carry a LR, never inflated one (my father used one in anger).

Sailing is still largely unregulated, it is the choice of the individual or skipper - and long may that last.

BUT - if a go over the side I know the numbers of people that will be impacted. Water Police, Marine Rescue, maybe helicopters, maybe bulk carriers - then wife, children, grandchildren.

Jonathan

The seatbelt isn't a good analogy, if you are in a car on the road you run the risk of being hit by another and even at 30 mph if you meet another at the same speed the result can be disastrous but boating just isn't like that.
Most of the posts are imagining circumstances where I also would take appropriate precautions but boating isn't always like that or there would be far fewer boat owners. In the days when I did deliveries I was aware of the potential dangers, of the fact that we were short handed and pushing it a bit because the owner wanted his boat there asap and I insisted on the necessary measures but I remember one occasion when we were motoring without a breath of wind, the three of us playing cards, stripped to the waist in bright sunshine and even though we were in the middle of Biscay it would have been plain daft to insist on everyone wearing an LJ and being clipped on. As I said "moderation" or if you prefer plain common sense

 

[RupertW]

It’s not that easy to remove, ive tried it on expedition leader training, standard practice to unclip when walking groups are on tow paths

We never have it clipped across our waists if that’s what you mean, but thanks for mentioning it - we will both give it a go with weighted rucksacks in the water and see what happens - perhaps best not for both of us at the same time or if it goes wrong people will wonder why that boat is anchored unoccupied for days.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Slight thread drift but I’m amazed at the number you see especially on youtube clambering around and in dinghies with ruck sacks on back, assume they all know you cannot swim at all with one on and god help you trying to get it off if you fall in.

When I met my dear Navigator, I had to instruct her firmly never to carry rucksack properly on both shoulders, as getting her bag or contents wet/muddy was less a concern than drowning if dinghy was swapped. Her experience was sailing dinghies where luggage was not an issue, unlike journeys to moorings/anchorages and their sometime islands.

 

[GHA]

Solo usually not clipped on if weather is nice, never use a lj but lightweight climbing harness and grigri so lanyard is always as short as it can be. Really handy at the mast as well so you can lean back in the harness to work. Wind up harness stays on 24/7 for days at a time til it calms down.
As for ladder to get back on.. Imho installing such things should only be addressed *after* you've sat down and thought long and hard about everything you could realistically do to make sure they aren't ever needed in the first place. Stay on board, not really that difficult.

 

[Graham376]

BUT - if a go over the side I know the numbers of people that will be impacted. Water Police, Marine Rescue, maybe helicopters,

Yes but look on the bright side, without casualties, they would be out of work, along with pathologists, coroners, undertakers etc.