Child overboard

[Baggywrinkle]

With our kids I did a simple test. If I grabbed a properly fitted jacket by the lapel, shoulder or waist belt and lifted them off the ground - if they could wriggle out, the jacket was a fail.

 

[alant]

The 150N kids' jackets are usually air/foam, rather than all foam. More usually, kids' jackets are all foam and 100N.

Agreed, but thats enough to keep me, with full working kit, afloat.

Why do smaller kids need so much?
If overboard in a breeze, they'd be blown all the way to france, like an erant li-lo!

 

[pvb]

If overboard in a breeze, they'd be blown all the way to france, like an erant li-lo!

Maybe that's the idea!

 

[l'escargot]

But the manufacturer says they do have crutch straps. Who would you believe?

The man who has the lifejacket?

Or are you suggesting that he is either lying or hasn't noticed the crutch straps?

Maybe they are removable and got lost, maybe a naughty child cut them off or perhaps even the manufacturer changed the spec to keep costs down.

Perhaps you should just tell the OP that he has got it all wrong, he is worrying unnecessarily as he is clearly mistaken over the crutch straps and the "lifejackets" his grandchildren are wearing are more than up to the job because you've checked it out on the internet.

 

[Clyde_Wanderer]

I have always paid a lot of attention to posts and magazine stories about man overboard drills and I have a system figured out on my boat for using the spinnaker haliard and winch etc to get a person on board again.

Last weekend I sailed in the Solent (beautiful!) with my two grandchildren aged ten and eight who were fitted out in the new approved lifejackets (one 'Spiral' and one 'Baltic') their parents had bought for use in their new Rib. They were bright orange affairs with big collars and zip-up fronts. You see them on kids everywhere.

I got to wondering as we drifted along in the sunshine how I'd get one of them back on board. My freeboard is not great and I can touch the surface of the sea with fingertips if I kneel down and stretch but this wouldn't help much.

There is nowhere to hook them with a boat hook. There is no loop strong enough to clip or thread a line for lifting or keeping them on board. No crutch straps so if I pulled them up by the collar there's a good chance they'd slip out. I came to the conclusion these approved devices are scandalously inadequate. Yes, they'd keep the wearer afloat. But they'd contribute nothing to his rescue unless, perhaps, you were in a Rib or dinghy.

I'm not talking about mid Channel in the middle of the night, when you'd definitely click them on by way of an extra harness. Under sail I make sure they stay in the cockpit in any case. If I had a dinghy towing astern I'd certainly use it but usually I leave it on the buoy. In fact, even my dog is better protected than the kids because his lifejacket has a carrying handle or loop that can be picked up by a boathook.

An incident is most likely to happen on a quiet sunny day because that's when you relax and let the kids sit up front, and so on. So what would you do? How would you get a child back? At this moment I have no idea.

Any thoughts?

I think the important thing to think about here is, how do the grandchildren get you back on board if you fall in, and how they would deal with such a situation.
Have you discussed a plan of action with them?
C_W

 

[pvb]

The man who has the lifejacket?

Or are you suggesting that he is either lying or hasn't noticed the crutch straps?

Maybe they are removable and got lost, maybe a naughty child cut them off or perhaps even the manufacturer changed the spec to keep costs down.

Perhaps you should just tell the OP that he has got it all wrong, he is worrying unnecessarily as he is clearly mistaken over the crutch straps and the "lifejackets" his grandchildren are wearing are more than up to the job because you've checked it out on the internet.

Sorry, I didn't realise you only wanted an argument. Don't you have a wife to argue with?

 

[l'escargot]

Sorry, I didn't realise you only wanted an argument. Don't you have a wife to argue with?

Yes I do and she's far better at it than you. Is that the same way you let you wife know you got it wrong without actually having to admit it?

 

[Babylon]

My lad's Crewsaver top of the range buoyancy aid (age 2-4yrs) had crotch straps that weren't reliable: two short webbing 'ribbons' that each doubled back over twin mini D-rings, but these kept slipping undone! I had to lash them securely with additional string. As soon as he was big enough I replaced it with a proper auto inflate LJ with a secure crotch-strap.

 

[pvb]

Yes I do and she's far better at it than you. Is that the same way you let you wife know you got it wrong without actually having to admit it?

I haven't got it wrong. If you'd bothered to read my first post in this thread, you'll see I wrote "The Crewsaver Spiral lifejackets are supposed to have crutch straps as standard, so is it possible these had been removed?", a possibility you've only just realised.

 

[l'escargot]

I haven't got it wrong. If you'd bothered to read my first post in this thread, you'll see I wrote "The Crewsaver Spiral lifejackets are supposed to have crutch straps as standard, so is it possible these had been removed?", a possibility you've only just realised.

And then you went on to say:

I think you'll find they do.

You seem to be getting yourself confused. I think I'll just carry on based on what the OP said who was relaying his experience and considers the bit of kit inadequate for his requirements but thanks for your input, I an sure the manufacturers appreciate you defending their product.

 

[sighmoon]

My 1 year old is clipped on all the time she's in the cockpit, as she can escape very fast if she wants. If the 6 year old falls over the side, we'd retrieve him over the bathing platform. If there's a swell that is likely to make this dangerous (which wouldn't take much), he'll be clipped on all the time.

Sorry, I didn't realise you only wanted an argument. Don't you have a wife to argue with?

Good line.

 

[northwind]

Back to the subject of getting children back on board...

I sail with 3 children 8,6 and 4. I'm sure we all agree with the principle that we want to avoid them going over in the first place, but children being what they are its sure to happen at somepoint.

The easiest way of getting them back, and the one we have discussed with ours, is for us to use the inflateable dinghy as a raft, either alongside or off the stern, which is why we tend to tow it. Its soft and has rope to hang onto and is at a much easier height to get into, ideally an adult will get into it, and pull the child in, and from there they can be helped back onto the mother ship.

 

[pugwash]

s I understand it these are lifejackets (not buoyancy aids) with BSI Kitemark. They are new so it's unlikely that the crutch straps just disappeared. I will check them again when I go down to the boat at the weekend and post further.

Of course the rubber dinghy solution is best and a good reason not to leave it on the buoy. And the bowline under the arms sounds good but I think would be rendered nearly useless by the padding effect of the LJ's.

I am not suggesting the LJs are useless or dangerous but they are certainly less than fit for purpose in my opinion.

 

[northwind]

s I understand it these are lifejackets (not buoyancy aids) with BSI Kitemark. They are new so it's unlikely that the crutch straps just disappeared. I will check them again when I go down to the boat at the weekend and post further.

Of course the rubber dinghy solution is best and a good reason not to leave it on the buoy. And the bowline under the arms sounds good but I think would be rendered nearly useless by the padding effect of the LJ's.

I am not suggesting the LJs are useless or dangerous but they are certainly less than fit for purpose in my opinion.

My Children hate me for it, but they wear Crewsaver SeaChild lifejackets. They have been in the sea wearing them, so they can see how the feel when wearing them, and I can see how they float.

In the case of SeaChild lifejackets, the easiest way of getting them back onto the dinghy is backwards, i.e grabbing the hook at the back of the lifejacket and pulling them upwards. Trying to bring them in forwards is tricky due to the padding on the front of the jacket.

I'd advise anyone with small children to get the child in the water with the lifejacket or bouyancy aid on, so they are familiar with the sensation and understand in a calm conditions what happens.

 

[l'escargot]

s I understand it these are lifejackets (not buoyancy aids) with BSI Kitemark. They are new so it's unlikely that the crutch straps just disappeared. I will check them again when I go down to the boat at the weekend and post further.

Of course the rubber dinghy solution is best and a good reason not to leave it on the buoy. And the bowline under the arms sounds good but I think would be rendered nearly useless by the padding effect of the LJ's.

I am not suggesting the LJs are useless or dangerous but they are certainly less than fit for purpose in my opinion.

I would say a lifejacket that isn't fit for purpose is useless and dangerous. It doesn't look as if the kite mark is of any particular value and it would seem your dog's lifejacket is a better spec.

For peace of mind, why not invest in better lifejackets that have proper crutch straps and lifting straps/loops? You don't need anyone to tell you, you have said yourself the ones you have aren't up to the job and cause you to be concerned.

 

[mcframe]

With our kids I did a simple test. If I grabbed a properly fitted jacket by the lapel, shoulder or waist belt and lifted them off the ground - if they could wriggle out, the jacket was a fail.

Pwah !

Think of the children!

Ours had both a float-test in the swimming pool, *and* were hoisted up the main halyard to the spreaders (aground in mud-berth at the time, not underway)

When they were smaller, we'd transfer from dinghy by picking up the lifting becket on the back, and as I once used the boom & a gun tackle to load a new cooker from the dinghy, well, they *had* to have a go at that. ;-)

 

[oldharry]

OK seems I am the only one so far with first hand exxperience of retrieving a child OB. Not off my yacht, but out of a flubber. Eldest son then aged about 8 fell backwards off the side tube. He was wearing an LJ that had a buoyancy collar,but no crutch strap, and flotation at the front only, so that it would turn the wearer the right way up even if unconscious. I dont remember the buoyancy rating (he is 37 now).

First thing was, even from the low freeboard of the flubber it took what seemed an age for him to surface - even wearing the LJ. A leap by Dad from the back end of the dinghy, and leaning over the side, he was still not visible. Thats one hell of a bad feeling, I can tell you! It felt like a lifetime though reality was probably only a second or so before I saw him surfacing. I simply grabbed the back collar of the LJ and hauled him back. Properly fitted and secured as it was, there was no danger of him slipping out of it as I lifted him. Lifted him? Yes. He was big boy, and normally I could not.

The dinghy was stationary at the time alongside as the others climbed down from the boat, but had we been travelling at speed, I doubt he would have surfaced close enough to the boat to make the grab.

I think it is vital that everyone aboard knows what it is like in the water wearing an LJ. Even the regular 150Newton buoyancy version gves much less support than you would expect. Also, a practive run in a safe place to make sure drills actually work. And yes we also went through the drills if mum or dad went over - the boys each knew exactly what to do after that.

It worked for us, but we realised theory and practice can be VERY different.

 

[SlimRick]

The only instance I have had of a child overboard was a couple of months ago when my son Toby (11) slipped going between the tender and the boarding ladder.
The buoyancy aid brought him to the surface much slower than I would've expected, and there was very little to grab onto to help him back on-board.
Fortunately this happened whilst we were anchored and in calm weather but it made me think about what would happen if we were under-way!
He now wears an automatic life jacket with crotch straps and a built in harness for "grabability"

He was still smiling afterwards!