Refueler
Well-known member
No ... just that if you fell in - you'd at least have been happy immediately before it and not know much about rest !
Does anyone ever do man not-overboard practice?
- Thread starter GHA
- Start date
Refueler
Well-known member
I fall into the common category ... gear is there - but conditions are OK - I'll don the gear if conditions deteriorate ... by then you are loaded up with things to do and gear gets ignored ...
Using the gear from moment you talk about slipping lines - till time tied up regardless of conditions would get you into the 'habit' of use ... something that many of us - if we are honest - do not have.
Refueler
Well-known member
Most incidents - if the casualty is still fully capable of assisting rescuing crew - they will get aboard relatively easily ... but as in most cases as I found myself - numbness sets in quickly and casualty is basically rendered unable to climb / assist - then the usual gear on board provided is useless ...
It really is a bad situation to get anyone back on board - especially with the high freeboard modern boat..... even with Sugar Scoop sterns etc.
thinwater
Well-known member
We've had lots of MOB threads. They are useful. But the OP meant to take us in a different direction.
Let's think about how we actually fall off. I once did a large survey of the owner's group for a sport boat I own (F-24). It's not random. There were two activities that accounted for >90% of the MOBs. I won't go into it because they are boat-specific and because I don't want to steer the discussion. But I did search hundreds of MIAB and USCG reports and found a lot of common threads. People were doing things like:
Yup, a tether could catch many, but there would be some injuries. Getting hit by the boom or traveller probably killed a few before they hit the water. Can we reduce the MOBs with engineering changes, how we do things, and how we move? The answer is yes, nearly all of them.
Let's think about how we actually fall off. I once did a large survey of the owner's group for a sport boat I own (F-24). It's not random. There were two activities that accounted for >90% of the MOBs. I won't go into it because they are boat-specific and because I don't want to steer the discussion. But I did search hundreds of MIAB and USCG reports and found a lot of common threads. People were doing things like:
- Securing a dinghy that was loose.
- Taming a chute racing (common).
- Re-entering the cockpit (not leaving). Sort of like a tight rope walker rushing the last few feet and falling.
- Strike by boom or traveller.
Yup, a tether could catch many, but there would be some injuries. Getting hit by the boom or traveller probably killed a few before they hit the water. Can we reduce the MOBs with engineering changes, how we do things, and how we move? The answer is yes, nearly all of them.
- Keep your head down. Maybe a preventer.
- Don't linger around the traveller.
- Teach and rehearse better movement. Staying in balance and planning movement. Think about the guy that climbed El Captain without a rope. Every movement was well considered and skilled.
- Better prepare the deck so things don't need attention forward or aft.
- Only neglected lifelines break. There is no excuse for poor inspection or sporadic inspection. As a climber, for example, I inspect the rope every trip, and at least casually, every time I run it through my hands.
onesea
Well-known member
Like much of safety not going over the side is about thought. Rarely do incidents happen without warning, close calls, unsteady moments, slips any of these can be the for warning to the accident.
Watching your crew, anyone standing/ sitting where they should not should be told.
In day light no part of the boat should be off limits, in port or at sea. Even at night it should still be accessed, with me thought and precautions. Unless the weather is foul.
If your familiar with all parts of the boat at sea you are less likely to make a mistake. You are more likely to know your vulnerabilities and find safer ways.
These are not drills they should be part of your sailing.
One that's often overlooked is your knees, allot safer than your feet.
The other thing that no one has mentioned.
"One hand for yourself one hand for the boat" age old but still true.
Watching your crew, anyone standing/ sitting where they should not should be told.
In day light no part of the boat should be off limits, in port or at sea. Even at night it should still be accessed, with me thought and precautions. Unless the weather is foul.
If your familiar with all parts of the boat at sea you are less likely to make a mistake. You are more likely to know your vulnerabilities and find safer ways.
These are not drills they should be part of your sailing.
One that's often overlooked is your knees, allot safer than your feet.
The other thing that no one has mentioned.
"One hand for yourself one hand for the boat" age old but still true.
srm
Well-known member
Who said anything about there being only one method used?
All boat handling requires the ability to adapt and adjust to the situation as it develops. Text book procedures are no more than an initial guide.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
For a long time RYA instructors, and no doubt other sail tuition schemes, have discussed the difficulty of manoeuvring back and recovery of a MOB. The staying on board message gets made and is a priority, of that I am in no doubt. For a long time RYA approached MOB drills as boat positioning to recovery a MOB first, and POB recovery second. Hence it is not correct to observe and RYA sailing school recovering fender / bucket with boat hook, with recovery of a MOB.
A MOB incident which resulted in securing the MOB to the vessel, but failed to recover the casualty onboard and resulted in a fatality, on a coded boat, resulted in the change where coding surveyors have to witness MOB recovery of a person. This can be done by video, but a person in the water has to be secured, lifted and placed on deck using the method suitable for the yacht.
In keeping with this thread, staying on board, clipping on, using a combined lifejacket and harness, I would always recommend fitting Lifesavers to lifejackets in case you do go overboard. They allow a single person onboard to hook the lifesaver with boat hook, secure to the vessel and then recover the casualty using a suitable method. In my case it is an 8 x part ratchet block and tackle hoisted on a halyard.
MOB Lifesavers | MOB Retrieval for lifejackets
I have no association with the seller or developer beyond being a customer. I have fitted to all 8 of my lifejackets and will fit to crew who bring their own. My wife can recovery all 14 stone and 8lbs of me, plus wet clothes, effortlessly, using just one hand if necessary.
A MOB incident which resulted in securing the MOB to the vessel, but failed to recover the casualty onboard and resulted in a fatality, on a coded boat, resulted in the change where coding surveyors have to witness MOB recovery of a person. This can be done by video, but a person in the water has to be secured, lifted and placed on deck using the method suitable for the yacht.
In keeping with this thread, staying on board, clipping on, using a combined lifejacket and harness, I would always recommend fitting Lifesavers to lifejackets in case you do go overboard. They allow a single person onboard to hook the lifesaver with boat hook, secure to the vessel and then recover the casualty using a suitable method. In my case it is an 8 x part ratchet block and tackle hoisted on a halyard.
MOB Lifesavers | MOB Retrieval for lifejackets
I have no association with the seller or developer beyond being a customer. I have fitted to all 8 of my lifejackets and will fit to crew who bring their own. My wife can recovery all 14 stone and 8lbs of me, plus wet clothes, effortlessly, using just one hand if necessary.
Refueler
Well-known member
I have always maintained that on a sail boat - one of the best recovery tools - is the sail ... remove sail from groove .... pole out halyard to side so sail is in water .... but sail still made fast onboard ... get person into sail - haul up halyard to 'roll' sail and person on board .. no need tackles or fancy stuff ...
The old saying - Make Haste not Speed ... better to take a little time than rush in with gear etc and end up unable to complete.
My advice to those on my boat .. if anyone goes in - turn boat to that side - do complete 360 that way - so eyes stay looking on one side of boat ... get to and hook person to boat side and then get sail over ....
The old saying - Make Haste not Speed ... better to take a little time than rush in with gear etc and end up unable to complete.
My advice to those on my boat .. if anyone goes in - turn boat to that side - do complete 360 that way - so eyes stay looking on one side of boat ... get to and hook person to boat side and then get sail over ....
srm
Well-known member
Many years ago there was a recovery device advertised in the UK that did just that - without the need to handle a big sail over the side. Wonder what happened to it.
Recovering a casualty from cold water in a horizontal position was regarded as improving survival chances as opposed to a vertical lift.
srm
Well-known member
A reasonable suggestion, except that boat would happily jog along at one to two knots when hove to in normal conditions.
It would also sail under bare poles, I have left a pier with it and a few hundred metres away picked up a mooring without sails or engine.
It is a case of getting to know each boat's characteristics. For example my Prout catamaran would blow dead down wind whenever steerage way was lost - regardless of the boat's aspect to the wind. It made berthing interesting, never mind a MOB recovery.
thinwater
Well-known member
Very true. My PDQ (avitar), related to your Prout, would not properly heave to. My F-24 has a deep center board and will spin around a spot an heave to pretty as a picture, with practically no way on, depending on the setting of the tiller and traveler. There are boats I wouldn't dare heave to in violent weather, for fear of capsize.
The point I was making is that if you are sailing with your wife, and either of you fall off, your method has to include working with no one at the helm during the recovery process. The answer for each boat will be different, but you need to park the boat. For some boats this may be impossible, and that's good to recognize up front. Back to the OP's point.
Singlehanders don't focus a lot on MOB procedures for personal safety. Or even tethers. They plan and they move carefully. They prepare the boat. As a 45-year climber, the edge of a cliff or roof does not scare me, but I move a certain way and I evaluate the conditions. What sort of work needs to be done? Is there moss or gravel near the edge? What is the slope? How will I move there safely and how will I secure myself once there and while working? Will the work require yanking that might pull me off balance? I will secure myself, by rope or bracing, before the work starts.
The point I was making is that if you are sailing with your wife, and either of you fall off, your method has to include working with no one at the helm during the recovery process. The answer for each boat will be different, but you need to park the boat. For some boats this may be impossible, and that's good to recognize up front. Back to the OP's point.
Singlehanders don't focus a lot on MOB procedures for personal safety. Or even tethers. They plan and they move carefully. They prepare the boat. As a 45-year climber, the edge of a cliff or roof does not scare me, but I move a certain way and I evaluate the conditions. What sort of work needs to be done? Is there moss or gravel near the edge? What is the slope? How will I move there safely and how will I secure myself once there and while working? Will the work require yanking that might pull me off balance? I will secure myself, by rope or bracing, before the work starts.
penberth3
Well-known member
As I read it, the big problem with this product is a LJ is not a lifting harness. Or should I say the majority of LJ's are not designed for lifting a person. Slipping out is one possibility.
thinwater
Well-known member
In fact, even those with leg loops, the loops meet no lifting strength requirement. They are required to hold the jacket in place during a jump into the water from 3 meters and while in the water, but are NOT required to meet a lifting or fall strength requirement. Often they use plastic buckles and occasionally fail during drills. The harness standard, ISO 12401, does not have a requirement for leg loops, and thus there is no strength requirement.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
My real world experience of being lifted out the water, with a lifejacket that is endorsed to be used with the lifesaver suggests that it is plenty strong.
I have a solution that works, without any assistance from the casualty, based on Duncan Wells’s approach.
All my lifejackets meet the ISO standard for harnesses and lifejackets. They are strong enough.
Sure, if loosely fitted, damaged, not compliant to the ISO standard, my method may fail. I also have a climbing harness, and a lifting strop as a back up system.
However, the method works, is fast, is strong and most of all is very easy to use. I am satisfied I have solution. I would hazard a guess that many on here don’t have a recovery solution, that has been practicsed.
Buy a lifesaver, they are about £20, try it in the water, get lifted out using a halyard. No need to take my word for it.
GHA
Well-known member
But, imho, going back to the first post - only after you've done every last think you can realistically think of to stay onboard in the first place.
Interesting bit of human psychology that even on a web forum everyone veers towards the exciting what to do when disaster strikes and things happen rather than slightly vague not so interesting how to not fall in when nothing happens..
greeny
Well-known member
But, imho, going back to the first post - only after you've done every last think you can realistically think of to stay onboard in the first place.
Interesting bit of human psychology that even on a web forum everyone veers towards the exciting what to do when disaster strikes and things happen rather than slightly vague not so interesting how to not fall in when nothing happens..
Prevention being better than the cure.
justanothersailboat
Active member
I'm amazed by the high amount of discussion of contingency supplies for when you're already in a disaster (flares, lifejackets and so on) and the relatively small amount about preventing a disaster (jackstays, gas detectors, clip-on points, really sorted through-hulls...). It seems reflected in the boats I see. My own didn't have anywhere to attach a jackstay at all for 40+ years until I bought and refitted her and thought hang on, I really ought to do that...
Slowtack
Well-known member
I carry a 3m square of trawler quality fishing net. The inner end attaches to two mooring cleats and the outer corners to be lifted by the boom and mainsheet once the casualty is alongside and within the net who can be rolled inboard once raised to deck level.. ..as advised by a wily old skipper and lifeboatman....if the casualty is fit enough he/she can clamber up the net
.... Hope it works....
.... Hope it works....
Refueler
Well-known member
Injurys can result from using LJ's to lift a person - but then again injury is better than dead.
On Fire Courses for MN - it was drummed into us - don't worry about how you get that casualty out of harms way - just get it done - chance to live.
LJ's - of course need thigh / crotch straps ... thigh are awful when trying to move around but less likely to crush the 'jewels' on lifting ... crotch are better when moving around - but more likely to have 'jewels' trapped ....
Refueler
Well-known member
I've just registered again for racing ... and LJ's are required to have thigh / crotch straps and lifting loop or means capable of used for lifting.
I am always surprised that many recognised brands of LJ that you could expect to see racing crews with DO NOT comply ... and have to have such added to them.