GP14_Tom
New member
A friend and I went to the Southampton boatshow and booked a Yachtmater Theory and Practical Course in Gibraltar at a cost of GBP 1720 paid on a chargecard.
On my return I sent an account of what happened on the course to the RYA and the NFSS, since the "School" had been (and I believe still are) displaying their logos to signify consumer protection, and as of last Friday were still accepting enquiries on the premise that they remain an RYA recognised School.
The replies I have received are also below.
Please take care when booking courses since this school also sell courses through affiliates. Also, can anyone advisewith ideas on how to porceed in getting recourse/compensation/refund?
Date15. .11.04.
To National Federation of Sea Schools.
Dear Madam,
I write to confirm the details of our earlier ‘phone conversation.
A sailing friend, Mark and myself each booked a Yachtmaster theory course and
respectively a Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster Practical course with Gibraltar
************. The bookings were made at the Southampton boat show on 19
September. We each paid GBP 860, a total of GBP 1720, plus flights, hotel bills etc.
The theory course was to run from 1-5 November with the practical beginning on the 7
and running ‘till 12 November. Unfortunately we encountered a series of problems which
ultimately led us to abandon the course.
Our main area of concern was with boat condition and safety but problems began to
surface almost immediately on arrival:
Week 1 - Theory
We arrived on Sunday 31/10/04 and I was told by J**k that the theory would not begin
until Tuesday 2/11/04. I asked for an explanation and was told that our course would not
begin as planned as the instructor had “not turned up”
The instructor who J**k eventually selected to take the theory class, T*m admitted that
he had no experience or desire to teach theory. There was no classroom available for us
to work in and the three of us had to share the dinette table on a Jeanneau 37 - pretty
inadequate for chartwork. With so little room we ended up in the lobby of our hotel
(minus the instructor who felt the hotel lobby tables were too low for him) for most of
the week.
The instructor, although pleasant, seemed pretty ineffective. Being a practical instructor
there was no prepared material, most of the teaching was by way of reading at us from a
book. When answers to practical exercises were wrong, he had to work back from the
answers to find explanations he could understand.
The coaching we received was little more than 10 hours during the whole week. We sat
the exam onboard I****r of London at the end of the week. There had been a blow
overnight which had resulted in a swell that morning. The rope snatch on the warps was
so bad that we had to abandon ship after starting the exam and finish it in our hotel
room. The fact that we both passed was due, I think, mainly to prior knowledge and some
hard swotting evenings.
Week 2 -
Practical
We were to do the practical on J**k’s boat, S****y . We boarded and I immediately had
concerns about the maintenance of the boat. The main hatches were propped open - one
using a salt container the other with a piece of wood. Tatty bits of tape covered the
coachroof rigging brakes. Bits of string held back reefing clutches. The horse shoe buoys
had no boatname on them and were tatty as was the Dan Buoy. The boat floor was dirty.
However my main concern at that stage was the stench of diesel (despite all the hatches
being open). When we commented about this T*m found spillage in the bilge. It was
mopped up but as soon as the engine ran it reappeared. The cause was presumed to be a
defective fibre washer where the fuel system had been bled by J**k. However we were
told that there was no chance that the leak would be fixed that week. Even ignoring the
fire risk, sleeping conditions, especially in the saloon and aft cabins were therefore set to
be pretty unbearable. I already had a headache.
There was also water leaking into the bilge from a split fresh water tank. The floorboards
were lifted to reveal sponges and a dustpan catching the spillage. We were told that
because of this the bilges would need to be pumped mornings and evenings. I was
concerned that worsening of the leak could destabalise the boat and leave 6 people
without fresh water.
I was asked to carry out a boat inventory check with another Yachtmaster candidate-
G**y. I was surprised at the list of defective or missing safety equipment. Areas of
concern were,:-.
No batteries in the saloon smoke alarm.(The only smoke alarm on the boat)
Out of date flares stored in amongst in date flares.
Flares stored loose under rear port berth next to engine
No emergency lighting - torches with dead batteries
Out of date glue (1989) in emergency dinghy repair kit
Wind instruments onboard not working
Many items, including EPIRB 127Mhz, held together with tape (see photos)
Coachroof rigging brake teeth completely worn out, especially on main halyard
Gas detector appeared to be located too high in the cabin (above chart table level)
Coach roof grab handles - told not to stand on them because teak was thin and brittle
Medical Kit - out of date 2002 (Although indate kit also found)
Position of life raft not marked
Liferaft service data tag torn away
Shower tray drain sealed off to render it useless
Washboard not fitted with means of locking in position
No flares in grab bag
No radar reflector in grab bag
No rigging cutters
Child lifejackets onboard were of manual inflation type(although no junior passengers
this week)
Cabin windows - stress cracked
Corrosion showing to stantion rail bases
The list goes on...................................
All this from a company advertising “Expertise, Integrity, Professionalism” and
“our boats are equipped above and beyond RYA standards”.
I spoke to Mark and we decided that this boat was not what we had been sold, was not
suitable for sleeping on due to the stench of leaking diesel and general unclenliness,
unsafe and would not pass an MCA inspection. We therefore requested to transfer to the
schools other newer boat moored alongside- I****r of London, or we would leave. J**k
agreed on the basis that Mark and I paid an extra GBP100 each. This we refused to do.
Only after G**y said he would also leave did J**kk see financial sense and agree.
Everyone set about transferring our supplies, charts and bedding.
On hearing the commotion, a chap called A**** H**** appeared and introduced himself
as being an RYA official examiner. He had worked on S****y but was concerned at what
he called “certain issues” over the condition of the boat, details of which he had emailed
the RYA just days before and on which he was now waiting for a reply. I felt that our
reasons to be concerned had been justified.
When we eventually attempted to leave harbour in the 2nd vessel the engine started and
promptly died after 30 or so seconds.
T*m the instructor said “I didn’t like to say Lads- but this boat suffers from an
intermittent engine problem”
T*m phones J**k, explains the problem and suggests that an engineer be sent for.
“No” says J**k who’s 73 years old “I will fix it myself between 3 and 4 p.m. this
afternoon” ( We have a passage plan for Morocco prepared with a departure time
between 10a.m. and 10.30 a.m.) “In the meantime take them out for the rest of the day on S****y”.
Mark, I, and the others say “O.K.” on the basis that the other boat will be fixed while
we get some sailing tuition.
“Have an early lunch and we’ll go straight away” says T*m the instructor.
We have lunch, come back at 12.30pm. and find T*m and a colleague, A**n, up to their
elbows stripping down the engine on I****r of London, bleeding the fuel system and
trying to start the engine. They find a broken fuel line letting air into the fuel system- a
problem unrelated to the intermittent ignition problem which results in the engine only
turning over after 3 or 4 turns of the key. J**k will get a new fuel line from the chandlers
when he arrives.
T*m gets cleaned up but knows J**k won’t be happy with the condition of I****r of
London. There’s diesel over the cockpit teak, down the companionway, over the galley
surfaces and over the seat cushions which are heaped up on the dinette. Never mind- he
will explain later and at least the defective fuel line has been identified.
It’s 3 p.m. by the time T*m’s cleaned up and joins the old boat. We radio the Marina to
say we are leaving and will be back at about 7 p.m.. Out we sail into the bay, hoist the
sail and G**y exclaims. “Why is the kicking strap union coming away from the boom?”
Examining the boom more closely reveals a repair where the kicker has previously torn
away from the boom and been resprayed. Further up the boom there is also stress
cracking around the mainsheet pulley to boom union. “ We must go back immediately
and tell J**k” says T*m. We lower the sails and trundle back to the marina at 4.30 p.m..
Ironically, T*m the instructor has an artificial leg incurred after an accident where the
Vang (kicking strap) broke on another boat he was sailing!
By now the log is reading that we have travelled 18 miles in 2 days. We have been told
that the examiner would join the boat probably Thursday afternoon- in less than 48 hours.
Two boats are broken. When and where was the tuition going to happen?
We tie up to the marina and I get onto the other boat to retrieve my bag. I look down the
companionway where I see J**k is working on the engine. “Sorry J**k, I just need to get
to my bag” J**k’s reply is “ Sorry- someone ought to be f****ing sorry, the state that this
f*****ing boat is in”. I remind J**k politely and without swearing that the state of the
boat has nothing to do with me- and lest he forget I am just a paying customer.
I get off of I****r, reflect on J**k’s words, look at the state of the boats, the demoralised
crew and decide to ask for my money back. I’m going home and Mark decides he’s
coming too. I try to find J**k’s wife C*******e who is just parking her car.
As she gets out of the car I ask her for a word but she tells me she’s “too busy to speak to
me” and that I need to speak to J**k. I commented that I’d already spoken to J**k but he
hadn’t appeared very co-operative.
I go back to the pontoon with Mark and he asks J**k for our money back. J**k refuses
to look up from the engine he’s still working on but mutters that even if he gave us a
cheque it would bounce. I tell J**k that I think he’s being short sighted if this is his final
decision. We pack our bags and leave the boat while J**k sets off to the chandlers
clutching the flexi hose that he is hoping will be in stock.
We depart the marina knowing that we have nowhere to stay, non-changeable flights, no
road transport but feeling that we had given the school fair chance to rectify the problems
encountered, the course is all but over and in the circumstances we have little alternative
but to leave.
I would hope that you agree that our action was not inappropriate given the
circumstances and I would appreciate your help in obtaining a refund and ideally our
additional expenses without going through a lengthy legal battle to do so. With a refund I
will be able to take another course.
As discussed this morning, I will send a copy of my letter to the RYA and copy you in on
any relevant correspondence.
Thank you for your help.
Yours sincerely,
The reply from the NFSS:
Dear Tom,
I acknowledge receipt by email of your letter, photographs and copy letter to the RYA concerning your complaint to G*************** and am saddened to hear of your reported troubled experience. I have passed your correspondence onto the NFSS Chairman for investigation and I will contact you shortly.
I can formally advise you that G*************** ceased membership of the NFSS.
The NFSS Committee and membership pride themselves in their professionalism and although the Federation has no legal liability with regards to G***********, the Chairman has asked me to inform you that the NFSS will endeavour to assist you in this matter.
Yours sincerely
And two replies from RYA:
Reply1
I am sorry you have had such an unsatisfactory experience at the G************.
The RYA Recognition of G************ was withdrawn on 20th September 2004. While this sent a strong message from the RYA to G********* about their standards it means that we can no longer take disciplinary action.
If G********** sold you a course on the understanding that the school was RYA recognised, they were clearly in breach of Trading Standards legislation, and should offer you a total refund. I suggest you contact the Trading Standards in the first instance and inform G********* that the RYA has confirmed their derecognised status.
Please let me know how they reply.
Yours sincerely
RYA
RYA reply 2:
I have copied this to our in house solicitor who will contact you next week. G******* recognition was withdrawn because their Principal reached retirement age on 20th Sept and they did not register a replacement. At the time of the Boat Show it would have been unlawful of the RYA to prevent them trading, particularly as they told us they intended to sell the School.
Once again I am sorry you have been so badly treated, and I hope you will find ou solicitor's advice helpful.
Regards
RYA
<hr width=100% size=1>
On my return I sent an account of what happened on the course to the RYA and the NFSS, since the "School" had been (and I believe still are) displaying their logos to signify consumer protection, and as of last Friday were still accepting enquiries on the premise that they remain an RYA recognised School.
The replies I have received are also below.
Please take care when booking courses since this school also sell courses through affiliates. Also, can anyone advisewith ideas on how to porceed in getting recourse/compensation/refund?
Date15. .11.04.
To National Federation of Sea Schools.
Dear Madam,
I write to confirm the details of our earlier ‘phone conversation.
A sailing friend, Mark and myself each booked a Yachtmaster theory course and
respectively a Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster Practical course with Gibraltar
************. The bookings were made at the Southampton boat show on 19
September. We each paid GBP 860, a total of GBP 1720, plus flights, hotel bills etc.
The theory course was to run from 1-5 November with the practical beginning on the 7
and running ‘till 12 November. Unfortunately we encountered a series of problems which
ultimately led us to abandon the course.
Our main area of concern was with boat condition and safety but problems began to
surface almost immediately on arrival:
Week 1 - Theory
We arrived on Sunday 31/10/04 and I was told by J**k that the theory would not begin
until Tuesday 2/11/04. I asked for an explanation and was told that our course would not
begin as planned as the instructor had “not turned up”
The instructor who J**k eventually selected to take the theory class, T*m admitted that
he had no experience or desire to teach theory. There was no classroom available for us
to work in and the three of us had to share the dinette table on a Jeanneau 37 - pretty
inadequate for chartwork. With so little room we ended up in the lobby of our hotel
(minus the instructor who felt the hotel lobby tables were too low for him) for most of
the week.
The instructor, although pleasant, seemed pretty ineffective. Being a practical instructor
there was no prepared material, most of the teaching was by way of reading at us from a
book. When answers to practical exercises were wrong, he had to work back from the
answers to find explanations he could understand.
The coaching we received was little more than 10 hours during the whole week. We sat
the exam onboard I****r of London at the end of the week. There had been a blow
overnight which had resulted in a swell that morning. The rope snatch on the warps was
so bad that we had to abandon ship after starting the exam and finish it in our hotel
room. The fact that we both passed was due, I think, mainly to prior knowledge and some
hard swotting evenings.
Week 2 -
Practical
We were to do the practical on J**k’s boat, S****y . We boarded and I immediately had
concerns about the maintenance of the boat. The main hatches were propped open - one
using a salt container the other with a piece of wood. Tatty bits of tape covered the
coachroof rigging brakes. Bits of string held back reefing clutches. The horse shoe buoys
had no boatname on them and were tatty as was the Dan Buoy. The boat floor was dirty.
However my main concern at that stage was the stench of diesel (despite all the hatches
being open). When we commented about this T*m found spillage in the bilge. It was
mopped up but as soon as the engine ran it reappeared. The cause was presumed to be a
defective fibre washer where the fuel system had been bled by J**k. However we were
told that there was no chance that the leak would be fixed that week. Even ignoring the
fire risk, sleeping conditions, especially in the saloon and aft cabins were therefore set to
be pretty unbearable. I already had a headache.
There was also water leaking into the bilge from a split fresh water tank. The floorboards
were lifted to reveal sponges and a dustpan catching the spillage. We were told that
because of this the bilges would need to be pumped mornings and evenings. I was
concerned that worsening of the leak could destabalise the boat and leave 6 people
without fresh water.
I was asked to carry out a boat inventory check with another Yachtmaster candidate-
G**y. I was surprised at the list of defective or missing safety equipment. Areas of
concern were,:-.
No batteries in the saloon smoke alarm.(The only smoke alarm on the boat)
Out of date flares stored in amongst in date flares.
Flares stored loose under rear port berth next to engine
No emergency lighting - torches with dead batteries
Out of date glue (1989) in emergency dinghy repair kit
Wind instruments onboard not working
Many items, including EPIRB 127Mhz, held together with tape (see photos)
Coachroof rigging brake teeth completely worn out, especially on main halyard
Gas detector appeared to be located too high in the cabin (above chart table level)
Coach roof grab handles - told not to stand on them because teak was thin and brittle
Medical Kit - out of date 2002 (Although indate kit also found)
Position of life raft not marked
Liferaft service data tag torn away
Shower tray drain sealed off to render it useless
Washboard not fitted with means of locking in position
No flares in grab bag
No radar reflector in grab bag
No rigging cutters
Child lifejackets onboard were of manual inflation type(although no junior passengers
this week)
Cabin windows - stress cracked
Corrosion showing to stantion rail bases
The list goes on...................................
All this from a company advertising “Expertise, Integrity, Professionalism” and
“our boats are equipped above and beyond RYA standards”.
I spoke to Mark and we decided that this boat was not what we had been sold, was not
suitable for sleeping on due to the stench of leaking diesel and general unclenliness,
unsafe and would not pass an MCA inspection. We therefore requested to transfer to the
schools other newer boat moored alongside- I****r of London, or we would leave. J**k
agreed on the basis that Mark and I paid an extra GBP100 each. This we refused to do.
Only after G**y said he would also leave did J**kk see financial sense and agree.
Everyone set about transferring our supplies, charts and bedding.
On hearing the commotion, a chap called A**** H**** appeared and introduced himself
as being an RYA official examiner. He had worked on S****y but was concerned at what
he called “certain issues” over the condition of the boat, details of which he had emailed
the RYA just days before and on which he was now waiting for a reply. I felt that our
reasons to be concerned had been justified.
When we eventually attempted to leave harbour in the 2nd vessel the engine started and
promptly died after 30 or so seconds.
T*m the instructor said “I didn’t like to say Lads- but this boat suffers from an
intermittent engine problem”
T*m phones J**k, explains the problem and suggests that an engineer be sent for.
“No” says J**k who’s 73 years old “I will fix it myself between 3 and 4 p.m. this
afternoon” ( We have a passage plan for Morocco prepared with a departure time
between 10a.m. and 10.30 a.m.) “In the meantime take them out for the rest of the day on S****y”.
Mark, I, and the others say “O.K.” on the basis that the other boat will be fixed while
we get some sailing tuition.
“Have an early lunch and we’ll go straight away” says T*m the instructor.
We have lunch, come back at 12.30pm. and find T*m and a colleague, A**n, up to their
elbows stripping down the engine on I****r of London, bleeding the fuel system and
trying to start the engine. They find a broken fuel line letting air into the fuel system- a
problem unrelated to the intermittent ignition problem which results in the engine only
turning over after 3 or 4 turns of the key. J**k will get a new fuel line from the chandlers
when he arrives.
T*m gets cleaned up but knows J**k won’t be happy with the condition of I****r of
London. There’s diesel over the cockpit teak, down the companionway, over the galley
surfaces and over the seat cushions which are heaped up on the dinette. Never mind- he
will explain later and at least the defective fuel line has been identified.
It’s 3 p.m. by the time T*m’s cleaned up and joins the old boat. We radio the Marina to
say we are leaving and will be back at about 7 p.m.. Out we sail into the bay, hoist the
sail and G**y exclaims. “Why is the kicking strap union coming away from the boom?”
Examining the boom more closely reveals a repair where the kicker has previously torn
away from the boom and been resprayed. Further up the boom there is also stress
cracking around the mainsheet pulley to boom union. “ We must go back immediately
and tell J**k” says T*m. We lower the sails and trundle back to the marina at 4.30 p.m..
Ironically, T*m the instructor has an artificial leg incurred after an accident where the
Vang (kicking strap) broke on another boat he was sailing!
By now the log is reading that we have travelled 18 miles in 2 days. We have been told
that the examiner would join the boat probably Thursday afternoon- in less than 48 hours.
Two boats are broken. When and where was the tuition going to happen?
We tie up to the marina and I get onto the other boat to retrieve my bag. I look down the
companionway where I see J**k is working on the engine. “Sorry J**k, I just need to get
to my bag” J**k’s reply is “ Sorry- someone ought to be f****ing sorry, the state that this
f*****ing boat is in”. I remind J**k politely and without swearing that the state of the
boat has nothing to do with me- and lest he forget I am just a paying customer.
I get off of I****r, reflect on J**k’s words, look at the state of the boats, the demoralised
crew and decide to ask for my money back. I’m going home and Mark decides he’s
coming too. I try to find J**k’s wife C*******e who is just parking her car.
As she gets out of the car I ask her for a word but she tells me she’s “too busy to speak to
me” and that I need to speak to J**k. I commented that I’d already spoken to J**k but he
hadn’t appeared very co-operative.
I go back to the pontoon with Mark and he asks J**k for our money back. J**k refuses
to look up from the engine he’s still working on but mutters that even if he gave us a
cheque it would bounce. I tell J**k that I think he’s being short sighted if this is his final
decision. We pack our bags and leave the boat while J**k sets off to the chandlers
clutching the flexi hose that he is hoping will be in stock.
We depart the marina knowing that we have nowhere to stay, non-changeable flights, no
road transport but feeling that we had given the school fair chance to rectify the problems
encountered, the course is all but over and in the circumstances we have little alternative
but to leave.
I would hope that you agree that our action was not inappropriate given the
circumstances and I would appreciate your help in obtaining a refund and ideally our
additional expenses without going through a lengthy legal battle to do so. With a refund I
will be able to take another course.
As discussed this morning, I will send a copy of my letter to the RYA and copy you in on
any relevant correspondence.
Thank you for your help.
Yours sincerely,
The reply from the NFSS:
Dear Tom,
I acknowledge receipt by email of your letter, photographs and copy letter to the RYA concerning your complaint to G*************** and am saddened to hear of your reported troubled experience. I have passed your correspondence onto the NFSS Chairman for investigation and I will contact you shortly.
I can formally advise you that G*************** ceased membership of the NFSS.
The NFSS Committee and membership pride themselves in their professionalism and although the Federation has no legal liability with regards to G***********, the Chairman has asked me to inform you that the NFSS will endeavour to assist you in this matter.
Yours sincerely
And two replies from RYA:
Reply1
I am sorry you have had such an unsatisfactory experience at the G************.
The RYA Recognition of G************ was withdrawn on 20th September 2004. While this sent a strong message from the RYA to G********* about their standards it means that we can no longer take disciplinary action.
If G********** sold you a course on the understanding that the school was RYA recognised, they were clearly in breach of Trading Standards legislation, and should offer you a total refund. I suggest you contact the Trading Standards in the first instance and inform G********* that the RYA has confirmed their derecognised status.
Please let me know how they reply.
Yours sincerely
RYA
RYA reply 2:
I have copied this to our in house solicitor who will contact you next week. G******* recognition was withdrawn because their Principal reached retirement age on 20th Sept and they did not register a replacement. At the time of the Boat Show it would have been unlawful of the RYA to prevent them trading, particularly as they told us they intended to sell the School.
Once again I am sorry you have been so badly treated, and I hope you will find ou solicitor's advice helpful.
Regards
RYA
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