Cat A ocean standard need full revision

[lustyd]

We are only now seeing large bonded hull windows quite close to the waterline on monohulls. Small bonded windows have been around for a while.
Only time will tell if this is a good idea or not.
I can imagine in a storm a thousand miles from land that it might be possible to stop water flooding your boat, given a small aperture. You can carry storm boards made for the job. I can't imagine how you would do the same on a large opening close to the water in 4 or 5m metre seas

At some point you’re going to have to put the goalposts down so we have something to aim at.
Small windows have not been falling out en mass so why would large ones be any less safe? We still don’t have evidence that they are unsafe after 16 pages of rambling hyperbole, just some examples of windows failing after uncertain life and maintenance and decades of use.
The ones in the video on the 25+ year old Beneteau clearly had the UV protection worn away by fenders and nobody thought to replace it. That’s negligence and not something regs can sort out.

I didn’t see you acknowledge what I said about chainplates.

 

[Supertramp]

We are only now seeing large bonded hull windows quite close to the waterline on monohulls. Small bonded windows have been around for a while.
Only time will tell if this is a good idea or not.
I can imagine in a storm a thousand miles from land that it might be possible to stop water flooding your boat, given a small aperture. You can carry storm boards made for the job. I can't imagine how you would do the same on a large opening close to the water in 4 or 5m metre seas

As with many features you could find a way to reduce the risk. Such as internal storm boards. Sirius reinforce the apertures to reduce flexing. When I bought Supertramp one of the first additions I made was a washboard to raise the companionway lip in rough seas. But that puts us back in the realm of owners specifying and modifying their boats. I get the impression that there are "good" and "bad" hull windows differing in size, position and construction.

Your concern is that many people don't see a risk, and many others never encounter the conditions which test it, until they do. I would sail to the Caribbean in Supertramp, but I might not want to come back!

 

[Lucky Duck]

Write up about hull windows in the entry for the “blue water cruiser” Allures Horizon 47

Speedy daysailers and rugged explorers: This season's most exciting new launches

 

[potentillaCO32]

As with many features you could find a way to reduce the risk. Such as internal storm boards. Sirius reinforce the apertures to reduce flexing. When I bought Supertramp one of the first additions I made was a washboard to raise the companionway lip in rough seas. But that puts us back in the realm of owners specifying and modifying their boats. I get the impression that there are "good" and "bad" hull windows differing in size, position and construction.

Your concern is that many people don't see a risk, and many others never encounter the conditions which test it, until they do. I would sail to the Caribbean in Supertramp, but I might not want to come back!

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I imagine that the people on this forum are in the upper quartile of people who maintain their boats properly.

However, judging by the utter shyte maintenance and condition that i have seen on the secondhand market, clearly a larger number of sailors are buy, use and forget.

For those people, modernity and style has introduced an item that, according to posters on here, could warrant checking after 10 years. This item, if it failed, gives a dirty great hole at, or below, the waterline that would sink the boat before you could say "look an Orca".

Now most of these people are likely to be setting off from Deacons Marina, Hamble, on their once yearly boat trip to see Tarquin in Cowes. So water coming in is likely to be something to talk to the other Bath Rugby season ticket holders about rather than life threatening.

However, it does seem to be introducing a potential hole that didn't exist before.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

They may call it ‘Lake Solent’ but it cuts up quite unpleasant outside Cowes. I wouldn’t like to be off Eejit point with a large orifice in the hull.

 

[Lucky Duck]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I imagine that the people on this forum are in the upper quartile of people who maintain their boats properly.

However, judging by the utter shyte maintenance and condition that i have seen on the secondhand market, clearly a larger number of sailors are buy, use and forget.

For those people, modernity and style has introduced an item that, according to posters on here, could warrant checking after 10 years. This item, if it failed, gives a dirty great hole at, or below, the waterline that would sink the boat before you could say "look an Orca".

Now most of these people are likely to be setting off from Deacons Marina, Hamble, on their once yearly boat trip to see Tarquin in Cowes. So water coming in is likely to be something to talk to the other Bath Rugby season ticket holders about rather than life threatening.

However, it does seem to be introducing a potential hole that didn't exist before.

On any trip to or from deacons the most hazardous bit is departing or arriving in the berth with the ‘interesting’ cross tide on anything but slack water

 

[TSB240]

I have just watched the video of the couple replacing the hull window on the bendytoy.

They certainly did not follow or use the Beneteau recommended bonding routine.

There was no attention paid to avoiding uv degradation of the bond.

Bendytoy reduced the risk of uv degradation by painting the polycarbonate edge with an acrylic paint before bonding with a two stage sealant.

On some models they used an external shield with no mechanical fixing other than sealant to protect the uv sensitive bond.

Had these windows been replaced earlier?

I don't think this couple have a clue about safe or approved methods of bonding hull windows and just went ahead with a low cost bodge so they could keep the channel views going. They relied on a 3M sealant not approved by Bendytoy.

 

[westernman]

I have just watched the video of the couple replacing the hull window on the bendytoy.

They certainly did not follow or use the Beneteau recommended bonding routine.

There was no attention paid to avoiding uv degradation of the bond.

Bendytoy reduced the risk of uv degradation by painting the polycarbonate edge with an acrylic paint before bonding with a two stage sealant.

On some models they used an external shield with no mechanical fixing other than sealant to protect the uv sensitive bond.

Had these windows been replaced earlier?

I don't think this couple have a clue about safe or approved methods of bonding hull windows and just went ahead with a low cost bodge so they could keep the channel views going. They relied on a 3M sealant not approved by Bendytoy.

If it was a plane, it would lose its air worthiness certificate for such a cavalier procedure.

 

[capnsensible]

I have just watched the video of the couple replacing the hull window on the bendytoy.

They certainly did not follow or use the Beneteau recommended bonding routine.

There was no attention paid to avoiding uv degradation of the bond.

Bendytoy reduced the risk of uv degradation by painting the polycarbonate edge with an acrylic paint before bonding with a two stage sealant.

On some models they used an external shield with no mechanical fixing other than sealant to protect the uv sensitive bond.

Had these windows been replaced earlier?

I don't think this couple have a clue about safe or approved methods of bonding hull windows and just went ahead with a low cost bodge so they could keep the channel views going. They relied on a 3M sealant not approved by Bendytoy.

If you are struggling to spell Beneteau, it's spelt Beneteau.

 

[billskip]

If you are struggling to spell Beneteau, it's spelt Beneteau.

Or Flexideck...

 

[rotrax]

They may call it ‘Lake Solent’ but it cuts up quite unpleasant outside Cowes. I wouldn’t like to be off Eejit point with a large orifice in the hull.

Or, indeed, in charge of the helm.............................................

 

[Frogmogman]

Think the whole CE is a contorted mess and should be scrapped. Perhaps understanding construction should be part of the rya courses? Because a couple sailing a boat need a different boat compared to a crew of six or ten. Perhaps a yacht brokers code is need to ensure they sell the correct boat to a person. (Like the couple of YouTubers who had a boat that broke when it was lifted out)! The broker who sold them that should be feeling bad (?)! Especially as it is more common for people to rush to be experts (Once had a lovely chap crew for me who was a yacht master after a few weeks of a course. Didn’t have a clue where to wedge a cup of tea at 3am in the morning and when it fell over I just went to my bunk.. The CE was a white wash to destroy the UK boating industry and having it is pointless when the situation is way more complicated. Just my 2p worth!! And didn’t want to sound as serious as it is written!!

Oh please. This sort of hysteria (in particular as regards the sinister machinations designed to destroy the uk boat building industry) reminds me of a load of arguments from about 2016 that we must never mention at pain of being banished from the forum.

Regulation of this sort provides a set of parameters which set builders a set of minimum requirements that allow them to sell their boats in a bunch of different countries without having to tailor their product individually to each market.

It also offers boat buyers a guide as to the sort of thing they are buying.

Buying a boat classified as cat A does not prevent a builder from constructing their craft to an higher standard, nor does it absolve you as a skipper of ascertaining that your vessel is suitable for the purpose you intend for it.

If it turns out that regulations need tweaking, they can be tweaked.

FWIW, I accept that there is an issue with bonded in windows, I suffered from this problem on my Sun Odyssey 349 (now sold). I would look to avoid bonded windows on my next boat.

This problem is not unique to the boat building industry. In Morgan’s glorious Aeromax the rear windows were bonded to their hinges. After a couple had blown out at high speed the factory recalled them and mechanical fixings were added. Mind you, when you see it with and without the mechanical fixings why they wanted to go with the bonded ones in the first place.

 

[potentillaCO32]

The UK boat building industry died out for a range of reasons, none of which were to do with CE. Including, in no particular order:

- not building what the general market was moving towards in the late 90s / 2000s.
- not linking up with the emerging charter market
- cost base too high
- zero gov support for the industry
- cr@p managememt and organisation and acting like cottage industries
- forgetting about innovation
- poor quality control
- poor marketing and sales

Much like uk car industry but on a smaller scale