"Can't you see we're racing"

AndrewB

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\"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Yet another wingeing letter in YM from a cruising lady complaining of being forced to give way by racing yachts. In my experience the fault lies far more often with cruiser than the racing boat.

No racing skipper I have ever sailed with has expected cruisers to yield their proper right of way as a matter of course. It can be a positive nuisance if they do. The only time we do ask for courtesy is that cruisers keep clear of start lines during the start period, but normally these are usually placed out of the way of cruising routes.

During a race, a right-of-way cruising yacht crossing the course of racing yachts is simply regarded as something to be factored into the racers’ strategy for that leg. I suspect the problem arises because the pottering cruising-yacht skipper, never having had the discipline to hone his own sailing skills properly, has only limited control over his own yacht, and does not appreciate the skills of others. You know, the sort of guy who has to go through a rigmarole about port wine and wind abaft the beam in order to work out has right of way. Such people are unnerved by the sight of another yacht sailing or tacking within a couple of lengths of him. Immediate appreciation of right of way, and good judgement of close encounters, rapidly become second nature to a racing helmsman.

What racers really dread though is the cruising skipper who is panicked into following the example of the writer who says, “at the very last second we were forced to head up to avoid a serious collision”. Such dithering is more likely to cause trouble than prevent it. It is a tribute to the skill of many racing helmsmen that there are not more accidents caused by such behaviour.

Cruisers! If you have right of way, then just hold steadily to your course AS REQUIRED BY THE RULES. If you really, really think you haven’t been seen, yell STARBOARD or whatever when the other boat is in hailing distance. If you do prefer to cede right of way, then do so EARLY with a positive and clear change of course – and don’t forget that for the boat you helped, three others who have already made allowance for you will be annoyed by this.

But please, please don’t dither or abruptly change course at the very last minute. Otherwise "can't you see we're racing" is the least of what we will say to you!
 

rogerroger

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Interesting.

And VERY generalising I think....

Racing skipper = highly skilled, proficient and knowledgable

Cruising skipper = ignorant twat bobbing around drinking tea not looking where he/she is going.

If a cruising skipper appears to be dithering it's because he's faced with not only you and your boat approaching, but the 10 or 15 others on similar or different tacks coming from all over the place. Holding course might suit you until you're clear but then might put the cruising skipper in an awkward place as the give way vessel.

Your impication that cruising skippers are ignorant of the rules is largely insulting. I have come across so many racing skippers that INSIST that they DO have right of way because they are racing and these (generally) tend to be the types to start shouting abuse.

I don't race - I don't want to spend my leisure time in competition with others. I do, however, make every effort to get out of the way of racing fleets as soon as possible. If I cannot and I'm the stand on vessel then I stand on - if I'm not helming but am skippering I have to continually reassure the nervous helms person that we need to keep our course so we are predictable - the same when the IOW ferries come up behind you.

Racing fleets do tend to assume they own the water - I find them a real pain to be honest so do everything to avoid them. Many do think the rules don't apply to them..

on so many occasions on re-entering Chi harbour which is a very restrictive entrance I'm faced with racing dinghy fleets right across the entrance - Laser 4000s and similar boats doing far more than the 8 knot speed limit and making it very difficult for a cruising skipper legitimately negotiating a defined channel.

You race - so you're used to split second decisions and extremly close margins - I fail to see why you think it unreasonable that a cruising skipper is going to get very nervous when a 40 yacht doing 8 knots is bearing down on him and showing no indication of changing course. Yes, the racing skipper knows he's going to round the stern with a foot to spare, but the cruising skipper doesn't.

Consideration all round is required.



Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk
 

zefender

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Re: "Can\'t you see we\'re racing"

Blimey! That's a bit harsh isn't it?

I'm one of the "pottering cruising-yacht skippers" you rather snootily refer to. I get my competitive kicks and adreline rushes through my work - I have no interest in thrashing up and down and round floating objects, against others doing the same. But to suggest that, just because I don't race, I have never had the discipline to hone my sailing skills properly is plainly daft.

I'm not against racing at all - just not interested in it thank you. I've had racing boats come up on my quarter berth so close (less than 1 metre away on one occasion). I don't panic, don't change course (assuming my right of way) and try to be cheery about the whole thing (even offered to pass over a mug of tea once!). But there's no doubt that to some out cruising, such a manoeuvre is highly intimidating.

To confuse fear with ignorance is not only arrogant, but aggressive too.
 

zefender

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Oh thanks a bunch RR. If that were so, the similarity of our posts would suggest you are too. Actually, I'm sort of in er marketing
 
G

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I agree but

I think it is often compounded by well known charter racing fleets who do think that they have right of way who do place their starts and marks in the approaches to Portsmouth Harbour. Owner racers are normally more predicatable so a fleet of say Etchalls is not so much of a problem but a fleet of sunfast 36's .....check the insurance..

Pete
 

Twister_Ken

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

>The only time we do ask for courtesy is that cruisers keep clear of start lines during the start period, but normally these are usually placed out of the way of cruising routes. <

That'll be from the RYS flagstaff to Prince Cosort, then - or maybe from Gillkicker across the North Channel?
 

BarryD

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Not enoughh experience of big yatchs but bloody annoyed at the little ones that race around the channel markers and then get stroppy that we won't run aground to get out of their way. Asked a pal earlier this year (power boats - sorry) does he give way in the channel? Answer - nope they can zig zag faster than I can, this is the marked channel and I intend to go to that fuel barge. Lots of air-horns blown at him but if you will race in the fairway....
 

tony_brighton

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Too right! Everytime I want to go from home base (Gosport) to the delights of the Western Solent I have to run the start line guantlet inconveniently sited off Cowes. And I dont think I'm out of control/lacking in skills etc. even if I dont have 8 'dead weights' sat on the rail. But it can be good fun to charge through on starboard just to annoy the t***ers.

BTW - how many racing boats can actually navigate? Or acknowledge the rules with respect to the moving exclusion zone?
 

Stemar

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Racing Skipper, on port, "RACING!" (Loud agressive tone, the equivalent of 5 blasts from the Pride(?) of Hampshire)
Cruiser (on starboard, raising beer can/tea mug in salute) "Cruising!"
 

bedouin

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Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

My experience is somewhat different - while racing I have never had cause to complain of the behaviour of cruising boats; but while cruising I have been given an earful by a racing boat who was clearly in the wrong.

I think the main problem is the different interpretation of the rules by racing and cruising boats. While cruising, good seamanship dictates that you make alterations to avoid collisions early (in fact IPCRS says you should). While racing the objective is usually to make as small an alteration as possible to avoid a collision - which means they tend to leave altering course to the last possible minute, and then they would consider that if they missed a collision by as much as 2 metres it is 1 metre too much.

That is all very well when avoiding other racing boats but can be very unsettling to the cruising skipper (and even more so to inexperienced crew).
 
G

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Interesting....

I have some sympathy with Andrew's view, but it is generalistic.

I race and I cruise too. In fact sometimes when I think I've been racing I discover on seeing the results that I have actually been cruising!

The fact that they are racing OFTEN means that the skipper is confident enough to handle the boat at close quarters. If they have come from dinghies then racing at less than an inch between boats is acceptable.

However, SOME cruising boats may not have much experience (we all have to start somewhere) and a single boat let alone a fleet approaching at speed, no matter how wonderfully handled, can be intimidating. Generosity works well under these circumstances. Giving a fair offing keeps the crews mind on the job even if it means losing a little ground. Concentration is everything and getting stressed about what another boat did or didn't do, who is not even in the race is counter productive.

Also, even if in the right, it's not the first boat to be disqualified for ungentlemanly conduct!

KCA
 

adarcy

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Dear oh dear!

Andrew,

Can I politely suggest you read the collision regulations again especially regarding the responsibility of skippers to avoid collision even when they have the right if way <<were forced to head up to avoid a serious collision”. Such dithering is more likely to cause trouble than prevent it.....>> !!!

Secondly, I hope you may understand from the various other posts that, whilst you may be able to discern that cruising people appear less skilled that racers, the general perception from cruisers and motorboaters is that there are two groups of racers. One group appears to know the collision regulations and the second know that the regs don't apply to them as they are racing. It is often very difficult to distinguish which group an approaching boat belongs to, IMHO.

If you would be good enough to identify your boat, I promise to take extra care to keep well out of the way or give you cause to have priority but, of course, I cannot vouchsafe for the attitude taken by many others in response to your intemperate post.

Anthony
 

AndrewB

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Apolgies if my posting seemed OTT ...

You are right that the view I put was over-generalised. It was an attempt to respond in similar vein to a very stereotypical criticism of racing yachts published on p17 of January’s YM, to demonstrate that there are two sides to this argument.

To be honest, I’m a bit surprised that, not for the first time, YM published such an unconstructive view. At times of late it has seemed like they are almost encouraging a rift between racers and cruisers, between sailors and motor-boaters. But we are not separate clans, at one time or another many of us enjoy all types of sailing, and our interests are not furthered by promoting hostility.
 

claymore

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Re: Apolgies if my posting seemed OTT ...

No time for Humble Pie my man - stick to your guns.
And I do hope you are not suggesting that we drop the inter-flora banter with those jessies in the MB area? They actually have posted a "have a look at this one " about your post.
 
G

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Re: LCD publishing?

Absolutely agree on the subject of YM actively widening the rift between cruisers, racers, motorboaters etc. Lowest-Common-Denominator publishing, or do they think that in doing so they are making themselves champions of their readership?
 
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