"Can't you see we're racing"

[tripleace]

Racing or not

Having live both sides sail and power, crusing and racing.

IMHO sail / racers do claim rights they do not have.

I wonder what would happen if a racing sailing craft came across a racing offshore power boat : that would be an interesting sight. EGOS at 40 paces

 

[Bergman]

Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

Andrew

I won't enter the controversey about comparative skills, but please tell me why racing people feel they have the right to shout obscenities at other boats where there are ladies and young children in the cockpit.

No matter how skilful one is at sailing the boat that is not how I believe one should behave

 

[Guest]

Wind up

Rogerroger and I were chatting about what subject to post to get everyone going. We had settled on Marina-friendly modern Bav/Ben/Jen vs long-keelers. But there's no way it woulkd have got evryone going like this one!!

Great work!

 

[rogerroger]

Re: Wind up

yes it would.

(there, reasoned and informed argument)

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[marchhare]

Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

I agree with the contents of rogerroger post, generalisations are riduculous.

Like many I spent my youth racing and now cruise, being a cruiser does not make me less skilled. Looking back to when racing I took far too many risks with both my own boat and the other guys, put myself and others in diffcult and sometimes dangerous situations, all for the sake of beating some other poor sod.

When racing I was arrogant, everyone else was a either a pillock or senile, hopefully now I respect both racers and cruisers.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Oh no it wouldn\'t!

In the spirit of the season

 

[Twister_Ken]

When you were racing you were arrogant.

Not me, I was merely superbly skilful, with excellent judgement.

Oh, and witty and handsome as well.

 

[Guest]

Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

I am put in mide of a cartoon in PBO some time back. A small fiberglass cruiser is blythly sailing into the old gaffers racing fleet with a great many tons of massivly overcanvassed boat and bowsprits bearing down on them. The caption is "starboard or not I think you're pushing it". What I think is needed is balenced judgement and an apreiciation of what the other boat is doing. I don't try and manover past a fleet of lazers at full tilt, its like trying to catch bats, they are so much faster an more manoverable than me that effectively I am like a stationay mark to them. On the other hand if faced with a choice between the side of the river they are racing on and the other I always try to keep clear. Don't race but love to watch a skilled fleet flying down the river.



Roly, Voya Con Dios, Glasson, Lancaster

 

[Guest]

Be kind to racers please

One thing that I have noticed is that yacht races invariaby finish the same every time thereby nullifying any potential excitement.

I think this is the problem. When I was racing the most excitement encountered was the cut and thrust of the start line. After the start, and If you are a crap helmsman everything else is a yawn. The only chance of any future excitement is beating up cruisers.

 

[pugwash]

Dithering? You bet!

I remember sailing gently across the Solent with my three kids in a borrowed boat when we were confronted by a line of racing boats, larger than us, hard on the wind and smoking along. We were on starboard, they were on port. By the time I realised the situation it was too late to get out of their way, which I would have been happy to do.

What scared me is that looking along the line of pulpits and hardened jibs I didn't see a single face looking out. Nobody was keeping a watch to leeward. Or to put it in a more rational way, I couldn't be sure anybody knew I was there. So what should I do?

In the event, I tacked in front of them (at a good distance, I might add) so they'd overtake rather than cross -- which they did, along with broadsides of unsavoury language. "Can't you see we're racing, you bloody idiot..." and much worse.

This illustrates the point that confidence in an approaching racer to alter course just enough to miss you depends entirely on whether you can be sure you have been seen.

What do you when you see one or more big yachts bearing down on you on port, and not a single pair of eyes peering around the foresail? Ideally, "Fire when you bear, Mr Hornblower..." ?

 

[Guest]

Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

I'm sure there are good cruisers and bad cruisers, just as there are good racers and bad racers.
During the America's Cup reenactment we chose to anchor, along with 20 or so other yachts, west of Yarmouth beween Sconce buoy and the beach. Once the ebb set in, this turned out to be close to the favoured racing line, but by then it was too late to move.
The good (ie polite) racers took this in their stride. At one point there were two superyachts engaged in a tacking duel bwtween us and the beach. It was obvious that they would have preferred it if we were not there, but they could cope with it.
It was towards the end of the big yachts that one came through, who waas presumably doing badly in the race. Various crew roundly abused us for being anchored "in the middle of the racecourse" (ie the Solent, which they considered to be theirs for the day). My wife and I had our mothers, both in their eighties, on board, to whom we had to explain the meaning of various obscene gestures performed by the crew. So one yacht's crew spoilt a marvellous day.

www.btinternet.com/~yohoho

 

[Rabbie]

Nail on the head, Pugwash!.

I could not count the times that this has happened to me in Chichester where dinghies of all classes have bore down on me whilst I was pottering along. Watching in vain for a pair of eyes to appear from behind a sail is a nerve-wracking experience, especially when you have 'right of way'. It is infuriating for me to alter course, only to be 'blanked' by these so-called sailors as they race on with a superior look, without so much as a thank-you nod!. Last year I was motoring down the Emsworth fairway when a group of racing dinghies approached, tacking in and out between moored boats there (stupidly dangerous manoeuvre at any time). Despite slowing down and watching out, one of them shot from between 2 moored yachts and clipped my aft starboard rubbing strake, removing a chunk of it. The 'helmsman' shouted, 'You're motoring, you should give way'. I never retaliate verbally, but If you race in my harbour and read this - think on!.

 

[Guest]

There is a big flaw in this argument

Any racer who behaves as described in this post is failing to obey the colregs. If he'she is the "give way" vessel, then he or she is obliged to make an early and definite course change which makes his or her intentions clear. This stipulation is in the rules specifically to prevent the kind of dangerous confusion which arises when the "stand on" vessel cannot be sure whether he or she has been seen, or whether the "give way" vessel intends to give way. So there is a real problem here which won't be solved by arrogance and hostility on either side.

 

[Guest]

Re: There is a big flaw in this argument

Having read all the above postings there seems to be one angle left un-said. The background to this is that I'm a cruiserman, fisherman and for my sins the safety boat captain at a large yacht club which regularly runs racing including 2 Nationals this year and having helmed a committee boat and been abused (verbally) by the racing boats for being in "their" way I find it most useful to abuse them back with interest. REALLY go for it!!! tell them that there mother and father probably weren't married when they were born. Throw a pound coin at the helmsman and tell him to give it to his father so he can go buy a licence to marry his mother. Ask the helm if this is his first race, and tell him he's not doing to well and should go look at the Colregs. Tell him your gonna protest him for taking unfair advantage by making you deviate course when he was giveway vessel ( they hate that one) In general just give him a broadside of the most foul language you can muster in the time available to you.. I can tell you it works everytime for me,,shuts them up and makes them look foolish to boot,,try it sometime and let me know the results

 

[SNAPS]

Re: \"Can\'t you see we\'re racing\"

To be courteous costs nothing for either the racing or the cruising skipper.
In fact it is implicitly required by rule two. and it is incumbent on both skippers to ensure that they take action in sufficient time to avoid a collision. this applies to both vessels regardless of who is the "stand-on" and who is the "give way" vessel.
Nicht waar!!

JACKTAR

 

[Will_M]

Re: There is a big flaw in this argument

Now I know you aren't a 'safety boat captain' (very grand title) at our club cause if you behaved as you describe your first 'event' would have been your last! Whats the committee boat doing in the way in the first instance, suggesting a competitors parents were alittle out of wed lock at the time, would likely see you needing first aid...

 

[incognito]

Re: Apolgies if my posting seemed OTT ...

Sorry Andrew...
There are two sides to this argument, I agree, so we have bad cruisers and bad racers. BUT... the balance is very heavily against the racers, and this is due to the fact that cruisers HAVE TO learn the ColRegs to put their feet on the RYA ladder to cruising success, fame and glory. On the other hand, the racers do not have to learn anything other than the latest 4-yearly version of the ever-changing racing rules!! Many of them don't even do that, they take a pretty conservative attitude, and learn only the basic rules and don't get involved in niceties of mark rounding or water at continuing obstruction, they just give way to the other guy and go on to wonder why they always lose (but all that is another story). In the racing rules ColRegs do get a mention, but that's it.

Now, two boats meet. One knows his ColRegs, the other knows his RacingRules. The ColRegs reign supreme over RR's and the racer is generally (not always, of course) blissfully unaware of the fact. For example, there is no such thing as an overtaking boat in RR's (simply establishing an overlap from astern within so many boat lengths, etc) and port and starboard are absolute, none of this business of what to do if you are not sure!! In addition, the cruiser may have a problem manoeuvering with considerably more draught than the racer, and has no prompt from ColRegs to shout back 'Water!', which the racer would hopefully understand.

Cruiser/Racers are an exception, they know both (superior sorts like u and me, Andrew!), but pure racers DO NOT KNOW THE COLREGS, ONLY THE RACING RULES, AT BEST!!.

 

[AndrewB]

Shouting - a culture gap

There have been several postings regarding shouting and abuse by racers, and its perhaps worth pointing out the culture gap.

We had a thread a year or so about what makes for a good skipper (presumably cruising). I was quite suprised to discover that the most frequently mentioned virtue, according to Scuttlebutters, is, to quote one of you, "someone who never, ever shouts".

The skipper's task on a racing yacht is one of motivation. Shouting aggressively, swearing too, is part of the means of getting the adrenaline running for last ounce of effort. You quickly learn any intended criticism is really quite mild. Shouting across boats is also a key safety measure in close quarters situations, as well as a commonplace if somewhat illegal (rule 2) means of distracting opposition.

This is a clear culture gap between racers and cruisers. Your behaviour is unlikely to be interpreted by racing crews as anything other than mildly humorous banter or more likely, an attempt to be distracting. It certainly won't be interpreted as a gross departure from accepted norms caused by extreme provocation, as it would between cruising yachts.

 

[Guest]

That\'s for sure

In racing, shouting is not only normal, its also productive. In cruising, shouting is pretty normal too, on some boats. But too often it is the sign of a jumpy skipper who lacks confidence or is trying to blame his or her own shortcomings on the crew. Ninety nine times out of a hundred it is not only unproductive, but actually destructive - of confidence, of effectiveness and of enjoyment. Nothing like a good yell spur on a keen racing crew and to panic and paralyse someone who isn't entirely sure what they are supposed to do or whether they really want to be there at all.

 

[oldgit]

Re: this argument

Presume you chaps will have no problem with us stinkies just nipping out to get a gallon of petrol or two to pour on your troubled raggy waters.