Buying my new toy

[Darter]

Hi all, first post :encouragement: Im looking at buying my self a 1977 Shamrock 30" The boat looks very good, and i'm getting a survey sap, but its rigged for racing so i will need to re-rig it for single handed sailing, And i will need to play around with the bulkheads, add door, ect ect, to change it for cruising.
And it only has a 12hp yanmar, so thinking of a re-engine, as my mooring is on the river dart at dittisham (ditsum) so very strong tides up from kiln gate. (i was on a charter moody 32 last year that only just made it up agents the tide)
So what im asking how well do they sail? and any points to look out for? that a survey would not pick up on?
Im thinking of spending a year or two setting it up for a round the UK trip, and may rent out my flat, and permanently live aboard it?
So any help will be grate

Aaron.

ps i have replied, sum time ago but still waiting for it to show up :sleeping:

 

[V1701]

Hello Aaron & welcome, just a few points as a start...

Might well be more economical to look for something that's already set up for what you need, unless you like projects! Have you costed the reengine, i.e. everything that's involved not just the base price? Bulkheads are usually there for a reason & best not to monkey with them. If you do go for it though bear in mind the survey doesn't include the engine.
Living aboard, yes go for it, I spent most of the last 5 years or so living on 27 & 29 footers. That was in a marina though, I could do summer on a mooring but not UK winter. Winter rates in south coast marinas aren't as crazy as full 12 month prices...
Best of luck whatever you decide, don't forget to visit the Liveaboard forum...

 

[Daydream believer]

Why have a door if you are single handed?
If you are worried about seeing something embarrassing put a bag over your head

in their day the Shamrock was considered a fast half tonner
If you are worried about single handing - ask what bit worries you & work from there? for instance
halliards & reefing lines extend to the cockpit & adopt single line reefing. Tacking get a smaller jib & decent winches. Steering a course - get an autopilot

 

[LadyInBed]

If I were looking for a boat for cruising, I wouldn't get a boat rigged for racing! Especially if I sail single handed.

 

[Tranona]

If I were looking for a boat for cruising, I wouldn't get a boat rigged for racing! Especially if I sail single handed.

Agree with that. Not a particularly good basis for your proposed use. If it also needs work and a new engine it could become a money pit. Better to look at a more cruising orientated boat with a good engine. Such boats are much easier to adapt to single handed use and will be capable of undertaking the type of voyage you are planning with ease.

 

[Concerto]

Whatever you buy, sail it for a while before making changes. You will learn a lot about the boat and you capabilities. I sail a Westerly Fulmar singlehanded and have made very few alterations compared to what I thought would need changing.

I have not sailed on a Shamrock 30, but used to raced competitively against one on the EAORA series when they were first launched. It was a quick boat, but not quite quick enough to beat us most of the time. All half tonners of that period now make good cruising boats as they were not extreme in hull shape and reasonable displacement.

Other boats of this era you could consider include Scampi 30, Nicholson 30, Albin Ballard, Hustler 30, S&S 30, and First 30. You need to check the layout on deck and below suit your needs, then condition will be the deciding factor. If you consider an engine is inadequate, then remember it will cost about £7,000 minimum to re-engine, So it is better to choose a re-engined boat than pay for a new engine, the cost difference is minimal.

 

[Slowtack]

They used to have a reputation for rolling downwind I think

 

[Daydream believer]

If I were looking for a boat for cruising, I wouldn't get a boat rigged for racing! Especially if I sail single handed.

Not always. A boat rigged for racing is just a boat where the owner has spent more time making things work better

 

[prv]

Not always. A boat rigged for racing is just a boat where the owner has spent more time making things work better

+1, and if some things do need changing then there will probably be enough extra gear to repurpose without having to buy lots of expensive new blocks etc.

Pete

 

[Binman]

There is a Shamrock 1977 for £12.000 full spec on Apolloduck, with all lines running back to cockpit, looks to be in excellent condition.

 

[doug748]

Some of your questions suggest you are a beginner.

Which is perfect, in many ways the only way to start

Unless there is a fault with the Yanmar you would be unwise to replace it. Certainly not because you are impatient to get up the Dart. 5kts is all you need.

I agree with the others, most of the racing stuff will work very well or can be left till you feel confident to use it. Also wait to use the boat and see what you like. Things like reefing from the cockpit, are fine but they bring their own compromises and many singlehand without.

If the boat is scruffy by all means go for it, but don't look for challenges, you will have enough work without looking for it.

Good luck, it is a fine boat for the job.

 

[Darter]

Hi all, and thank you all for your reply's, sorry if i came across as a complete newbie, as im not, but i am with sailing, i did try and answer last night but they did not come through, so i waited till today and still no joy?
Any way a bit about my self, i'm a marine engineer and work in several boat yards, my brother is to a marine engineer/electrician fitter, and yanmay yamaha rep and is in marine sales, so i get parts trade prices :encouragement: i have lived on the river from age 6 on and off.

The yachts i was first looking at were Trapper 300/400, Sadler 25, all under 5k and well fitted out, and with resent surveys, and sum UFO 27/31 GK29's but they in need of a complete refit.
But then i saw two Shamrock 30, both around 6k or under, and "seem" to be in good condition, but at the max of my budget, (6-7k) so that got me thinking of a good project for a live aboard? as i can do all the work my self, apart from the rigging, but i have a friend that has offered to do this for free, i just have to buy the fittings ect, i help him out from time to time for free too
When i was talking about the bulkheads i did not mean cutting them about, just adding to them to make a door way for the aft cabin and head, as i will need a little privacy for when friend and family come aboard
I dont no why sum of you are saying 7k to re-engine? as i have just fitted a new Beta 14 with Technodrive, in a yacht complete job for £4600, (im letting him sort a prop swap) and sold the old yanmar 1gm for £400, and gave £200 back to customer.

I dont no allot about yacht rigging or sailing, as i have always had power boats rib's ect, but it's something i'm really excited about!

Thank you, and if you can think of any more boats to look out for let me no, and any more info, i will be very grateful!!

Yours Aaron

PS if you want to see the two boats im looking at, they are on Apoll 1 is 6k and the other is 5.5k

 

[Tranona]

Very different swapping a 1GM for a Beta as the two are virtually identical in size and you can reuse all the ancilliaries. A Yanmar 12 is a very different animal and you need to build new beds and replace all the controls, water intake and exhaust as well as the prop. The shaft may well be bronze and worn as will the stern gland. These things add up and the stimate of 7k at retail prices is not far out. Fine if you can get trade prices and DIY, but you will need a 20 hp engine for that boat to get much real improvement in speed and that is going to cost more than the boat.

That is the reality of buying old worn out boats. The initial cost is just the entry fee to a lifetime of expense if you want to get the best out of the boat. Better to save your money and buy a better boat with all the expensive work done.

 

[Darter]

Thank you Tranona, you have given me much to think about. But changing and fitting new engines are a job i regularly do. And up intill recently i was fitting a wide range of biggish inboards (145-315hp) to cobra ribs, so had to bond in new beds ect, and often had to cut out the deck to change/repairs the fuel tank, (as around 1 in 10 or so, did not stand up to a pressure test) we received the boat bare just hull and tubes ect, then we had to do a completely fit out, as the customer wanted.
We do have a reconditioned 3gn30 with accessories at work, but then there's the weight, and probably the need of installing an larger stern tube and shaft, bulk head, cover work, so yes the cost will go up fast.

So i really dont no what to do, about a 30 footer!! as i really what to get out sailing this summer!!

So im thinking of looking at sum smaller boats that are ready to single handed sail now, im going to go and see a UFO 27, and a sadler 25 and a trapper 300, over the next 2 weeks, i like the UFO 27's but i have seen one in the yard with bad osmosis, and keep seeing real bad looking one's for sale, but i never here of sadler's having osmosis?? (probably do)

Lots to think about and not much time

 

[Seajet]

Boats with a few years on the clock are not necessarily ' worn out '; but one must look seriously at the equipment inc sails, mast and rigging as this was quite a serious racing boat and may well have been campaigned hard.

A friend had ' Red Shamrock ' at our club for years; he used her for fast cruising, usually with just his wife and toddler children aboard, and sometimes with his elderly father.

The owner was a very experienced sailor with a penchant for performance designs, but in the end he admitted the Shamrock was a bit of a handful for cruising and didn't even have a saloon table - he eventually sold her and swapped to his father's Westerly Pageant.

Money was not an issue, just handiness; maybe he had begun to slow down having done the performance thing, I was surprised when he later gave up sailing altogether as he's still only middle aged.

So while I applaud your eye for a boat and desire to sail well - sitting in a thing which goes like a pudding is not a way to learn or make one's heart sing - I think the Shamrock is not really suitable for your needs, and that deep fin keel would be a limiting factor which a more cruising oriented design would not have; in a while you may well want to visit drying or shallow harbours, or for example try the French Canals.

 

[doug748]

Wrong side of the country and probably in a state but a UFO 31, in the right price range, here:

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/111413506/ufo-31-sailing-yacht.html

 

[Seajet]

doug748,

that looks very cheap even by today's prices, but still has at least the problems of the Shamrock described by self and just about everyone else above, maybe more snags given the price...

Darter,

how about a Trapper 501 twin keel ?

A bit of a well kept secret, they go perfectly well, are good looking and the 501 had a good interior; look for a re-engined model by now though.

A very versatile boat if one doesn't fancy a Centaur, I test sailed a T 501 TK and it went well, and they seem to go within your price bracket.

Lots of good boats around though, so don't just stick to one type, look around locally to start with.

Joining a club or just offering to crew might be a good way to learn the pro's and cons of various designs, lots of people want a crew, often more for company than any terrific sailing abilities, you shouldn't need to join a club for this initially.

 

[Spyro]

I would forget a Trapper 300, too small an interior for a live aboard.

 

[Daydream believer]

As to regards depth of keel I think Seajet is a lifting keel specialist so tends to be a little biased
if you want performance the bilge keels are - in my opinion _ a no no. (That statement on its own would start a forum debate going on for days)
My 31 ft boat draws 1.800 & quite honestly here on the east coast I have never found it a problem. Some marinas - like my home port, Bradwell- mean one has to time entry /departure so as not to arrive within 2 hours of low water & crossing some sandbanks can be an issue but rarely a major hassle & certainly not a reason to worry about deep draft. on my round UK trips I have had to miss out places like Padstow ( Possibly a blessing) but I have spent weeks in the Dutch canals ( better than the French) & have only touched a couple of times & it was solved by going on the opposite side of the canal

 

[Seajet]

"As to regards depth of keel I think Seajet is a lifting keel specialist so tends to be a little biased "

I was under the impression the Carter 30 I had for 4 years had a 5' draft lead fin dangling underneath, now someone tells me it was lifting too - think of all the money I wasted on deep moorings, marinas and boatyards !

Yes my Anderson 22 is a lift keeler, but I was suggesting a twin keeler might suit Darter better; frankly twins are usually a better option than lift over about 25'.

I love the West Country dearly and have trundled around there a lot in my fast dinghies as well as the Anderson and Carter, if you are planning to stay local and don't mind expensive moorings & winters at boatyards a fin keel is fine.

If you want to go a bit further East or across the Channel at some point, let alone visit the loveliness that is the French Canals, a twin keeler may well prove a versatile option.