Buying my first sail boat!

[Fr J Hackett]

You both seem to have lost sight of the OP's request:

"I would like some advice and feedback from you experts in here please on what would be a good boat to buy based on needs, usage and budget. " and then gives a list of possible boats.

NOT

"I would like some advice and feedback from you experts in here please on whether or not I should buy a boat at all and if so whether it ought to be a big expensive one or a small cheap one".

You're just projecting your own bias.

Just answer the question.

We have been doing some research for quite a few months and our current preferred boat would be a Jeanneau sun odyssey 349, a 2014 - 2017 model.
Thoughts on this boat, is it a good boat in peoples eyes and be good enough to go world cruising if needed, even in 10 years time, also good enough now and comfortable enough to be a good weekend / holiday cruiser?

He is asking peoples opinion on a specific boat and replies with various reasons as yes or no fall into the category of valid answers.

 

[DownWest]

He is asking from very little knowledge.
Local case.. Friend got the bug, no experience at all..took the basic courses and bought an 80s 27ft fin keeler. Quite a nice boat, with a bit of work needed. Wife on-side.. He is still not happy, cautious, on his own, but planning to get some hours and buy bigger for longer cruising in a few years. So, not unlike the OP. He helped me with a Bav 34 and was very impressed with the boat and thought that would be about right for them to do the extended cruising. (He actually thought it was longer, until he saw the writing on the quarter).
He will be able to afford a bigger boat AND keep a house to rent out while cruising. Backstops matter..esp if things go wrong out there.

 

[Kelpie]

Tbh I get an alarm bell whenever somebody appears to think that choosing the right boat is the biggest hurdle.
The exact make/model/size/type of boat doesn't really matter all that much. But it does need to be robust and the people in it need to know how to fix it, and what to do to avoid breaking it in the first place.

 

[V1701]

Assuming that you do sail away on a boat in ten years time, it's highly unlikely to be on the boat that you buy now, whichever boat you buy now. This is because you only find out what you really want to do on a boat and what you really want a boat to do for you, by owning one (or a few) of them. If you accept this there is not much point buying what you think you might want in ten years time right now. The rest is up to you and of course your partner. There have been lots of useful suggestions and advice already, the best of which in my opinion being that you absolutely have to be prepared to learn how things work and how to maintain, fix and replace them when they go wrong...

 

[Wansworth]

Not suggesting that the Op should begin in a row boat but the general trend of these question airs is in some ways a way to miss out on doing the leg work skip the apprenticeship which used to be normal mainly due to restricted finances.Magazines are in some way to blame with ready made lifestyles already tried so the would be yachtsman can see himself cresting the waves.There are people who do get a boat and do set off and do circumnavigate or whatever but they are a small quantity.

 

[Fittster]

If you are considering exploring the Med or Caribbean I'd spend some time / money chartering in those locations. You'll get to dip your toe in the water about what its like to sail and live on boat without any long term commitment. I'd considering it short term renting of the lifestyle.

 

[convey]

Something else against the idea, that's not be raised so far if the OP is still around, is the speed at which technology is increasing, in particular electronic and electronic drive systems.

10 years is a long time in those worlds.

Whereas with basic old boats, depending on basic old skills, there is a sort of timelessness that reaches right up into the 1980s, and remains in classic boats, with modern boats, you are building in huge and expensive amounts of obsolescence ... that can't be easily fixed.

By which I'm taking about ripping out and putting back in new electrical systems. I imagine that the boats of 10 years hence will be highly advanced, eg something I'd be hoping for are good "battery in keel" systems to carry sufficient power.

Would I want to pay to be retrofitting an electric engine by then?

You're also going to have increasing legislation against dirty diesels and waste water which, if you need to retrofit storage tanks will mean considerable work.

Clearly, I am at the skeptic end of diving straight in. Part of which is, I think I feel sorry for you/the OP missing out on all the other experiences they could be having with all that money, eg if I had the money, I throw in at least one classic wooden boat at some point, and probably one full cabin for sailing in UK/Northern waters.

I wouldn't keep the wooden boat but I can think of a few I'd really like to sail for a season.

I'm also a fan of small, shallow keel boats for other experiences.

 

[Babylon]

Jamiekent, so how was your CC course?

Genuine question - because sailing is what its all about!

I did mine in 2004. On the first day we set off to cross the Channel as the school wanted to give each of the two more experienced students (employees of theirs) qualifying offshore passages (65NM from the IoW to Cherbourg) for their eventual YM. It was pretty rough: four hours out everyone except the instructor had puked (including both the employees who had previously crossed the Atlantic) and it was getting rougher. I realised that doing nothing but going in a wavy straight line for a total of two days was going to lose me and my 14yr old nephew 40% of our course time, with very few foundational skills to be learnt except how to grab someone's harness from the back while they fed the fishes, so persuaded him to turn round. Once back inside the Solent, the next four days were superb!

Jon

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Jamiekent, so how was your CC course?

Genuine question - because sailing is what its all about!

I did mine in 2004. On the first day we set off to cross the Channel as the school wanted to give each of the two more experienced students (employees of theirs) qualifying offshore passages (65NM from the IoW to Cherbourg) for their eventual YM. It was pretty rough: four hours out everyone except the instructor had puked (including both the employees who had previously crossed the Atlantic) and it was getting rougher. I realised that doing nothing but going in a wavy straight line for a total of two days was going to lose me and my 14yr old nephew 40% of our course time, with very few foundational skills to be learnt except how to grab someone's harness from the back while they fed the fishes, so persuaded him to turn round. Once back inside the Solent, the next four days were superb!

Jon

Time enough for that sort of stuff later it is however a necessary evil but not one for 1st time out or it's likely to be last time out.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I'd argue that you don't need the theory if you've got the practical, which covers things like navigation, colregs and tidal calculations anyway. Get the DS theory book and keep it on board, by all means and, if you want a piece of paper, get a few miles under your belt and do the Yachtmaster Offshore.

I'm in the get a smaller boat to play with first camp. Something you can learn on and bounce off pontoons without shedding too many tears over scratched gelcoat. You've got ten years - you'll know a HUGE amount more about boats and what you want to do with them by eight years time and still have a couple of years to find and fettle the perfect boat for you.

One is expected to have attended a Theory Course before attempting a DS or YM Practical Assessment. How else would you learn the Navigation, Tidal Calculations, Passage Planning,Colregs etc.? Learning on online courses is fine for some, but classroom sessions are more effective. Just reading a manual is not sufficient, as proficiency with both traditional charts and electronic navigation must be perfected by repeated excercises before trying to do it quickly and accurately at sea.
There is also the requirement have logged a qualifying mileage, which IMHO, is better attained on formal courses rather than crewing with random skippers who may know how to sail, but are more likely to just pass on their bad habits and questionable practices.

 

[Wansworth]

Yachtsmen or boaty people who have not been brought up on leaky old boats or manky second hand Trident 24 are a different generation,much more confident without carrying around the ballast of making do,those whose source of information was Peter Heatons sailing with hints of how to set a drouge or stuff causing cotton in a weeping seam or come to that Deny Desuotter he of the original PBO.

 

[Babylon]

Time enough for that sort of stuff later it is however a necessary evil but not one for 1st time out or it's likely to be last time out.

Yes it was a pretty stupid of the school/skipper to try to prioritise the advanced training of its employees over the ab initio needs of two newbies on a specific paid-for course, but those eight hours out in a Channel gale on the first day didn't put me (at least) off in the slightest!

 

[Kelpie]

I did my DS course without any theory first. It was a bit of a joke really seeing as I had all sorts of things signed off, like anchoring, which we never touched in the course at all.
Tbh I learned a lot more by just buying a boat and getting on with, and spending a lot of time with experienced people willing to pass on their knowledge.

 

[Babylon]

I agree. While I climbed the RYA training-ladder in a sensible order at first (CC, then crewing for others, then DS theory then practical, then buying my boat, and then doing YM Theory a year later) I've had several people aboard as crew whose only qualification to be a day-skipper was a single week on a DS practical... and who I've had to re-teach all the very basics as if they'd never stepped onto a boat in the first place.

I've long argued that the RYA shouldn't let its accredited schools hand out DS tickets to people without an ounce of prior experience just to fill their boats on a commercial basis.

 

[convey]

Clearly, I am at the skeptic end of diving straight in. Part of which is, I think I feel sorry for you/the OP missing out on all the other experiences they could be having with all that money, eg if I had the money, I throw in at least one classic wooden boat at some point, and probably one full cabin for sailing in UK/Northern waters.

Put it another way, if I knew I was going to lose £20k on a single boat, I think I'd rather lose £5k each on 4 different boats.

Now given that many very cool and desireable boats are available to buy for £5k (I saw an amazing C&N 32-er go for £5.5k that could have raced you across the Atlantic, and I won't tell you where the best deals are), you could afford to just give them away after you've had the fun of them and still not lose any more money. And that's giving you very wide margins to work with as in some cases you need not lose any.

But, it is a Rolex-like bling to sit in the marina you're after, I accept it's a different equation, and a different class of sailing.

Ditto, if I was really into Rolex-like bling, I would not like it to be full of drill holes because next weeks electrics don't match last weeks fittings.

 

[Airscrew]

Hi Jamie,

I am only a few years ahead of you. I am sure you will have a great time.
We have a Centaur in the UK, and half a Bavaria46 in Greece.

I have sailed one, and think the SO349 would be a fine choice.
But so would so many other types.
(also sailed the Bav33 and Ben46)

I have a few suggestions.

Buy the boat the the other half also wants.
If you buy something with perceived shortcomings, you will be starting on the wrong foot.
So hot water, heating, galley space, entertaining space etc will all have some degree of priority over other more sailing criteria.

The biggest concern you should have is the potential for scaring the crew/family/friends.
This will wreck your sailing before you start.
A CC and then DS course are only steps along the way, but not enough.
You need more, and I suggest:

Choose a boat and layout that you can manage single handed, to build your experience, and to be able to cope with any problems without the need of crew that may be onboard.
Jumping to a Ben46 or Duf 455 will make that impossible.
With the right level of basic experience, and the right gear, you will be able to handle the SO349 alone.
I would make that an important goal before you get too ambitious with the famliy.

How to get there?
You obviously have the passion, and a decent amount of money to spend.
So, do the CC (done now?) and the DS.
Then hire a RYA training skipper, 1on1, on either your own boat or one he/she has access to.
Do that a few times until you can do a trip with almost no assistance, planning, sail handling, mooring.
Ensure you can handle basic problems at sea. Bleed the fuel, clear a weed blockage, change the impeller.
Then sail a few times with experienced crew. Best to join a sailing club and make freinds for this.

A couple of practical points on the yacht.
If your other half isnt 100% keen and practical, or less strong than average, then the genoa needs consideration.
A jib (smaller than genoa), or a self tacking jib might need consideration.
Make sure you have centre (midship) cleats. It makes mooring sooo much easier short handed.

Best of luck.
Go and have some fun.

 

[[178529]]

I think the OP has disappeared. It did seem strange micro managing a ten year dream and wanting to know how to sail to Cornwall in January on the other thread.

 

[Babylon]

In the other thread he started (which is in the Lounge) the OP states that he's currently doing "Day Skipper combined theory & practical" having done "Comp Crew six months ago"...!

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[ryanroberts]

I agree. While I climbed the RYA training-ladder in a sensible order at first (CC, then crewing for others, then DS theory then practical, then buying my boat, and then doing YM Theory a year later) I've had several people aboard as crew whose only qualification to be a day-skipper was a single week on a DS practical... and who I've had to re-teach all the very basics as if they'd never stepped onto a boat in the first place.

Yep this is me pretty much. Though I have found it a hell of a lot easier to get crew with a boat than crew on a boat to level up when I was living mostly in ..the midlands.

 

[convey]

I think the OP has disappeared. It did seem strange micro managing a ten year dream and wanting to know how to sail to Cornwall in January on the other thread.

It's still worth it for anyone else who hits Google to ask the same question and is lead here.

Sometime I wonder if the management of such forums as these just pose question in order to provoke discussion?