Buying a pre-1984 sailboat - Private sale

[Marceline]

Hi - so we've taken the plunge to buy a bigger boat and have had an offer (subjet to survey) accepted and paid a deposit and have engaged a surveyor

The boat is an early 70's Westerly (with Lloyds builders plate) and looks in good condition so hoping the survey comes back fine

The owner though is selling privately rather than a broker, and as we've only ever bought one boat before (and through a broker) I just hoped to ask about documentation that we should make sure is there

The boat is UK based and we're hoping to sail it in years to come over to the EU and (hopefully) further, so we guess its imperative to make sure the boat can be able to be taken to visit those places and that we won't be turned away if somethings missing.

We joined RYA just now and they've a lot of guides and some standard contract templates (very glad of those) - but just wanted to ask - what do countries need to see in our documents to allow us into their terrtories for the boat ?

 

[chris-s]

Given the age of the boat, most likely the only bit of paperwork you will get will be the new bill of sale. Little to no chance of any ‘vat status’ history or paperwork.
SSR registration is the most likely piece of paperwork you will need to sort out, easy to do online.
Insurance is usually required for marinas tho not always checked.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, minimal paperwork required for the boat to visit foreign places, just registration (SSR), insurance and VHF certificates. From the purchase point of view you should ensure the seller has title to sell, the usually evidence is Bills of Sale, certainly to him/her and preferably going back further. You should get a BofS to you using either the RYA or MCA template and check there are no outstanding bills for example from marinas or boatyards.

Short term travel to the EU is relatively straightforward, although clearing in for people can be a bit of a chore. Expect when you get that far the new Schengen systems will be working which may (or may not!) make life easier. Reporting in and out of the UK is straightforward and you can download the latest government advice on procedures nearer the time. Going further afield may introduce more complications for clearing in and out of other states, but again plenty of sources such as the CA or sites such as Noonsite for up to date information.

Good luck with your purchase.

 

[Marceline]

cheers so much Chris and Tranona - really helpful and very glad for the advice

 

[st599]

When you say sail it to the EU and hopefully further, how long do.you intend to stay in the EU? If more than 18 months, it would legally need to meet the latest RCD spec., which it won't.

 

[Tranona]

When you say sail it to the EU and hopefully further, how long do.you intend to stay in the EU? If more than 18 months, it would legally need to meet the latest RCD spec., which it won't.

That is overstating the issue. TA can be renewed by leaving and re-entering. If it does not leave it will be subject to VAT based on value and rate at date of first entry. AFAIK the EU has not changed the exemption to RCD for pre 1998 boats built in the EEA, which this boat was.

 

[Marceline]

thank you - the being able to reset the 18months is useful

does the boat have to make landfall/check into a non-EU country - or is being in their waters enough ?

If having to check in - does Gibraltar count ?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Some answers on the EU website here ....

https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/fa095d6b-45dd-4c7a-94c7-bad21d0473a9_en

Can you have another period of Temporary Importation? How long must you wait?

Yes, you are not limited to a single period of temporary import. You can sail the yacht out of the EU and when you came back again a new period of temporary admission can begin. The customs rules do not provide for a 'minimum period' during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the Union.

It is best to use the same port for leaving and re-entering, and ask the question "What do you accept as evidence that the boat has been outside the customs territory of the EU?"

The answers will vary from "Sail out of sight for a few hours and do not anchor or go ashore" - This was what I was told on 2 occasions in Croatia, but at the other end of the spectrum it can be marina receipts and/or passport stamps from a non-EU country that post-date your exit from the EU. (If you do have marina receipts and/or passport stamps from a non-EU country that post-date your exit from the EU then you are almost certainly OK.)

Always best to ask, and note the name of the person who gave you the answer. If you assume, then as the saying goes it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

 

[Koeketiene]

When you say sail it to the EU and hopefully further, how long do.you intend to stay in the EU? If more than 18 months, it would legally need to meet the latest RCD spec., which it won't.

You got a link/reference for that?

My boat's 1977 vintage.
Registered in one EU country.
Permanently kept in another EU country.
No-one has ever inquired about RCD - not customs/douane, registering country, insurance, ... no-one.

 

[dansaskip]

Little to no chance of any ‘vat status’ history or paperwork.

Don't know why you say that. My boat from 1987 came complete with original Bill of sale, Original Builders invoice and spec and A VAT paid certificate.
Surely any owner worth his salt would keep all the documentation relevant to a valuable asset.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Don't know why you say that. My boat from 1987 came complete with original Bill of sale, Original Builders invoice and spec and A VAT paid certificate.
Surely any owner worth his salt would keep all the documentation relevant to a valuable asset.

That kind of owner is definitely in the minority, and as the boat ages and depreciates, it will end up as a not so valuable asset. The paper trail becomes as relevant as it is to a second hand lawnmower, at the recycling depot, that won't start.

 

[LittleSister]

Don't know why you say that. My boat from 1987 came complete with original Bill of sale, Original Builders invoice and spec and A VAT paid certificate.
Surely any owner worth his salt would keep all the documentation relevant to a valuable asset.

There are an awful lot of owners not worth their salt it seems!

Most boats of that sort of vintage will have had a series of owners in the intervening half century or so, any one of whom might have lost or failed to pass on the VAT paperwork, which wouldn't have been thought of any significance for most of the period.

I've owned six, and only for one did I receive any VAT paper work, and that an invoice, but no receipt, that included `VAT, but just for the hull and deck moulding. (it was fitted out by the first owner). I used to worry about the lack of a VAT certificate when I first started visiting abroad in a boat of my own, but it has never been an issue (though I've never sought to export or import one).

The OP's boat is said to date from early 1970s, and therefore might even have preceded the introduction of VAT in 1973!

What I have looked for on each purchase of an old (and all of mine have been!) is a reasonable degree of confidence that the seller actually owns the boat. Typically a series of previous Bills of Sale, for each time it changed hands, but rarely (only once, perhaps twice) have I received a 'full set' going back to the first owner. Are there yard, mooring or equipment bills with the current and/or previous owners' names on, etc. Does the seller have a plausible story of their ownership, old photos, etc. None of which gives certainty, but is usually enough to persuade me, and I haven't come unstuck yet.

The other thing to beware is that there isn't an outstanding bill for anything, especially mooring or storage costs owning (as responsibility for that will likely stay with the boat on change of ownership, and boat could be impended until paid). The RYA etc. standard forms for bills of sale will include the previous owner warranting that there isn't, and indemnifying you for any such bills, but good luck enforcing that if push comes to shove. Again, you are unlikely to get certainty, but you'll want to consider the circumstances in which you find the boat and its owner.

 

[Dellquay13]

Don't know why you say that. My boat from 1987 came complete with original Bill of sale, Original Builders invoice and spec and A VAT paid certificate.
Surely any owner worth his salt would keep all the documentation relevant to a valuable asset.

I’ve owned 8 boats since 1999, motor and sail, one bought through a broker and the rest private. The age range was circa 1970 to 1988. The only that one had any paperwork previous to the immediate seller was a yacht with a receipt I found in a locker for a speed seal kit for the water pump bought by some previous owner.
The lack of paperwork never worried me, even for the very old DellQuay dory I kept in Greece for 10 years on a SSR registration.
I’ve taken several of these boats into the EU with no questions asked, admittedly all pre Brexit.
Both my current yachts have folders with my purchase BoS and receipts for everything I have spent on them since,.

 

[Tranona]

Don't know why you say that. My boat from 1987 came complete with original Bill of sale, Original Builders invoice and spec and A VAT paid certificate.
Surely any owner worth his salt would keep all the documentation relevant to a valuable asset.

The boat in question is probably pre VAT and from a time when any form of paperwork was of little importance. It is only in the last 20 years or so that paperwork has become important, and even now in the UK there is no legal requirement to have any paperwork relating to a private boat. It is a chattel, no different from a bike or a lawn mower.

 

[st599]

You got a link/reference for that?

My boat's 1977 vintage.
Registered in one EU country.
Permanently kept in another EU country.
No-one has ever inquired about RCD - not customs/douane, registering country, insurance, ... no-one.

Both the UK and EU have confirmed that any vessel being traded second-hand between the UK and EU will be required to meet the obligations set out in either the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) in the EU or the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) in the UK when placed on either market after the 1 January 2021.

https://www.rya.org.uk/news/rya-and...tial-new-costs-of-trading-second-hand-vessels

If you follow the RYA members links, the EU document mentions importing, not selling.

 

[Koeketiene]

Both the UK and EU have confirmed that any vessel being traded second-hand between the UK and EU will be required to meet the obligations set out in either the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) in the EU or the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) in the UK when placed on either market after the 1 January 2021.

https://www.rya.org.uk/news/rya-and...tial-new-costs-of-trading-second-hand-vessels

If you follow the RYA members links, the EU document mentions importing, not selling.

Thanks for that.
Wasn't aware.

Guess that as I bought my current boat prior to 01/01/2021 in Holland I wasn't affected.

So, if I ever do decide to buy another boat, it won't be in the UK.

 

[Skylark]

Hi - so we've taken the plunge to buy a bigger boat and have had an offer (subjet to survey) accepted and paid a deposit and have engaged a surveyor

The boat is an early 70's Westerly (with Lloyds builders plate) and looks in good condition so hoping the survey comes back fine.

Hope it all goes well for you both, fair winds.

What will you do with your lovely Jaguar?

 

[Marceline]

Thanks so much Skylark - I think joining RYA has been a good help (the guides there seem fair and helpful for both buyers and sellers) and the advice on here has been of great help too (thanks so much for all the replies everybody)

As for our Jaguar 24 I think we're likely to be selling it on - we've loved having it very much and its been a great help to us as novices and its been so lovely being out on the Menai Strait with it

But also we might pass it on to my Brother - he's often mentioned wanting to getting a boat and we're looking at getting a road trailer (I think 24' is about the max) and him taking it to the East coast to where he lives. But he's got a lot on at the moment with house sales and so much more,so we may just put it up for sale.