Burying time expired flares

JumbleDuck said:
There does seem to a touching belief that all you need to do is press a button or two and help will appear, deus ex machina, in a matter of minutes. Perhaps it's a Solent (or other crowded waters) thing.
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Doubtful, hardly any of my sailing has been in the Solent, or indeed in season. Usually I'm in Scottish waters and out of season, so don't see a lot of crowds.
The belief in technology is no worse than a belief that when miles off shore someone will see your little red light and act accordingly. The skipper of the RIB recently thrown into the Irish Sea seemed to think his PLB was rather fabulous!
 
lustyd said:
Sorry I meant PLB not AIS.
Yes, my handheld is always charged and lasts for many days, GMDSS is designed to be low power with short data bursts and so will not drain it as quickly as talking. The built in GPS would supply a lifeboat with coordinates to go to within around 10m so no need for VHF direction finding.
The PLB has a 121.5MHz transmitter for homing in on and so I won't need to hold buttons in. This battery lasts 5 years if unused and the device is tied to my LJ with dyneema cord.
A flare might give the helm a moment of knowing where you are, but it will also ruin his night vision and only last a second. The GMDSS mayday will show on his plotter as a waypoint, and can be polled again and again for up to the moment position information by both a rescue boat and the goastguard if in range for coordination activity. The Coastguard can also broadcast a position request and see if there are other vessels in the area who may be able to help. Those other vessels will certainly not be lighting up with flares offering their services.
121.5 is used extensively by SAR worldwide including by planes flying overhead.
EPIRBS do indeed need servicing, but at least they don't require careful disposal which seems beyond many yachtsmen, and I've never seen anyone suggesting they bury an EPIRB in their garden because they can't work out how to contact the authorities for disposal.

I don't have as many misunderstandings as you seem to think. Perhaps though you yourself have a few misunderstandings about electronics?
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How often does the epirb update your position once it's been set off? And how long does it take the station that picks up the transmission to forward the updated information to the local coastguard and then onto who ever is searching? Hitting the red button on the VHF will send out a fix, but I don't think it sends updates afterwards. This all means that your position to within ten metres will not remain so for long and you could be miles away by the time a lifeboat is on scene and searching. At which point, they'll get on the radio to you and ask you to light a flare...
 
Woodlouse said:
How often does the epirb update your position once it's been set off? And how long does it take the station that picks up the transmission to forward the updated information to the local coastguard and then onto who ever is searching? Hitting the red button on the VHF will send out a fix, but I don't think it sends updates afterwards. This all means that your position to within ten metres will not remain so for long and you could be miles away by the time a lifeboat is on scene and searching. At which point, they'll get on the radio to you and ask you to light a flare...
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As I said it's possible to poll a VHF as often as you like for position - even the set on your boat can do this if you bother to read the manual!
No I don't believe an EPIRB does update position, that's why it has the built in 121.5MHZ homing signal although rescue authorities always say that an initial accurate time and position makes it possible to work out where you'll be to start a search. By the time they are that close though, a normal GMDSS Mayday and position request can take over. Of course if that much time has passed you'd be long out of flares so the argument is moot at that point even if you did happen to fall overboard with some in your pockets!
 
lustyd said:
Doubtful, hardly any of my sailing has been in the Solent, or indeed in season. Usually I'm in Scottish waters and out of season, so don't see a lot of crowds.
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Me too. That's why I don't turn my nose up at anything which might attract attention! As well as lots of flares I have an EPIRB and a radio with one of those red button thingies.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Me too. That's why I don't turn my nose up at anything which might attract attention! As well as lots of flares I have an EPIRB and a radio with one of those red button thingies.
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Do you have anything that would be with you in the water as your boat sails into the sunset? By the sound of it your boat has a very good chance of being rescued ;)
 
Lasers were designed to aid identification in land based situations
A plane flying over a forest clearing could easily see a laser whereas a flare may well cause a massive fire
Red or green lights are easy to disinguish on a hillside or somewhere on land where there are no other distractions
A laser used horizontally from a boat rolling in a big sea near other navigation buoys etc is a different scenario. holding it steady would also cause some difficulty.
a life boat would be at a different angle to a ( say) helicopter or plane or even a search team on a hill surveying a valley area
also it would stand out more to others on the land if it could be seen as an unusual flash
a red flashing light at sea viewed from the land is totally different & would , often as not, be ignored
a parachute flare (or projectile fired upwards) on the other hand would certainly appear unusual to the casual observer & raise some sense of awareness that something was different
 
lustyd said:
Don't you? I thuoght it was part of the requirements for coding...
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Like JumbleDuck I carry every form of distress signal available. However, if I didn't, I wouldn't be in any position to criticize those who felt that they'd prefer to invest the cash they'd previously spent on flares/tar barrel[1] on safer and more effective emergency communications gear [2]. After all we can all think of scenarios where only a burning tar barrel would do, but some accept the small risk of sailing without tar barrel. [3]

[1] Buying, replacing & practicing with flares (or a tar barrel) are not cheap and not 100pc safe.
[2] Say an EPRIB, a PLB and an aquapac for a mobile phone.
[3] Lightening takes out all electrics, sets fire to the flare box, for one.
 
Woodlouse said:
How often does the epirb update your position once it's been set off?
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Every twenty minutes in the case of McMurdo units

Woodlouse said:
And how long does it take the station that picks up the transmission to forward the updated information to the local coastguard and then onto who ever is searching? This all means that your position to within ten metres will not remain so for long and you could be miles away by the time a lifeboat is on scene and searching. At which point, they'll get on the radio to you and ask you to light a flare...
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Falmouth Coastguard receive the broadcast - so, it takes 3 minutes for the broadcast to coastguard; A lot quicker than 999 operator to coastguard, and then to question about what was seen, where, exact location, get the member of the public to try and give a pinpoint location, then trying to clarify exactly what was seen - a PLB if registered correctly identifies the vessel, who is likely to be on board, emergency contact numbers to verify if the vessel is likely to be in the area where the PLB/EPIRB was set off, and more. It gives a positional accuracy within 63 metres within 3 minutes, and continues to broadcast your current GPS location every twenty minutes - you just can't argue with that.

Also, if you're going to put the case about "being unsure of something failing because it's powered by batteries" what would you say is the difference between a chemical energy source breaking down over time and a battery which is...um....an electro-chemical power source which breaks down over time? ;)

Sorry about the bit of an anal reply - but there were posts that seem to set out very much against a PLB's/EPIRB's usefulness compared to a flare, quoting some inaccurate points - PLB's transmit on 121.5 in addition to the 406 frequency precisely to give those with HF direction finding equipment something to home in on....
 
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FishyInverness said:
Every twenty minutes in the case of McMurdo units



Falmouth Coastguard receive the broadcast - so, it takes 3 minutes for the broadcast to coastguard; A lot quicker than 999 operator to coastguard, and then to question about what was seen, where, exact location, get the member of the public to try and give a pinpoint location, then trying to clarify exactly what was seen - a PLB if registered correctly identifies the vessel, who is likely to be on board, emergency contact numbers to verify if the vessel is likely to be in the area where the PLB/EPIRB was set off, and more. It gives a positional accuracy within 63 metres within 3 minutes, and continues to broadcast your current GPS location every twenty minutes - you just can't argue with that.

Also, if you're going to put the case about "being unsure of something failing because it's powered by batteries" what would you say is the difference between a chemical energy source breaking down over time and a battery which is...um....an electro-chemical power source which breaks down over time? ;)

Sorry about the bit of an anal reply - but you did seem to set out very much against a PLB's/EPIRB's usefulness compared to a flare, quoting some very inaccurate information - PLB's transmit on 121.5 in addition to the 406 frequency precisely to give those with HF direction finding equipment something to home in on....
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I'm not against them at all. They serve a valuable purpose, I am against disregarding flares as obsolete though despite the ability of other aids to pin point your position. Regardless of technology the most effective tool in search and rescue is still the mk1 eyeball and I think most performing a search would much rather home in on a flare than follow a radio bearing.
 
To my mind it is not an either/or argument. Rather it is a case of having electronic means of calling for help (PLB, VHF, EPRIB, mobile phone) and also other means of attracting attention, the easiest of which are pyrotechnics. A parachute flare can, in good conditions, be seen for 25 miles or so. Setting one of those off may well just reinforce the electronic call for help or may in fact be what initiates the SAR call out, before Falmouth has finished the confirmation of the EPIRB status (which can take 45 minutes IIRC from another thread).

The only thing I question is the value of any laser markers. I see little in them of value over a decent waterproof strobe, which can be had for a fraction of the cost and will, I suspect, be visible over a wider angle (surface and air) without the dangers associated with lasers to eyesight.
 
lustyd said:
As I said it's possible to poll a VHF as often as you like for position - even the set on your boat can do this if you bother to read the manual!
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The VHF set on my boat is not even capable of switching on anymore. Let alone performing the more advanced functions of DSC that it never had anyway. I'm still in two minds about replacing it with a new DSC unit or just getting the same model off eBay and save myself having to rewire the thing.
 
JumbleDuck said:
The electronic signal is good as well. But if I bang off a flare in the Sound Of Luing, there is a good chance that a local will see and get to me a long time before the boys from Oban, Tobermory or Port Askaig can come and look for the wreckage.
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And in the Sound of Luing the tide will carry you miles very quickly, potentially amongst some very nasty rocks or into tide-races like the Gray Dogs. I too would want something that would attract the attention of any boat in the vicinity ASAP. It's all very well saying that GMDSS will alert people quickly - how many posts on here have there been saying that people don't monitor their VHF and often have it switched off? It's all very well saying (as I do) that they should as a matter of good seamanship have their VHF on and monitor channel 16, but some people don't. And the crew of fishing vessels may well be on deck, handling nets or other equipment, not listening to the VHF. They'll see a flare - but the VHF will squawk unheard, and they're probably the best people to render assistance in places like that. In a place like the Sound of Luing, the Doruis Mhor, Kyle Rhea and many other locations on the West Coast of Scotland (and doubtless plenty of other places), you need help from the closest possible vessel, not from a lifeboat that might be an hour or more away.

I'd use both - press (and hold!) the big red button, but let off a flare as well. The big red button will get help - but it may not be as timely as the help from setting off a flare.
 
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