Bought a Never splashed Colvic Countess 33 on eBay, Looking for infos

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

Yes, that's a simple requirement. You'll just need a 10kW electric motor and around 30kWh of high quality deep cycle batteries - say around 40 decent sized 12v batteries.

UMA sailboat has 3 batteries and they make it work. YouTube, Check it out. 36 footer sailboat. Plenty of others withouth 40 batteries make it work, I wonder how you calculated that. Perhaps you can share yout Math? I love learning.

 

[pvb]

Re: Oddity project status.

UMA sailboat has 3 batteries and they make it work. YouTube, Check it out. 36 footer sailboat. Plenty of others withouth 40 batteries make it work, I wonder how you calculated that. Perhaps you can share yout Math? I love learning.

The maths is simple, maybe ask your brother to explain it to you.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

The maths is simple, maybe ask your brother to explain it to you.

Hoooo I know the math, but as I could not understand yours I was simply wondering if you cared to explain it to me how you arrived at your conclusion for the size of motor and Battery bank. Maybe I need to learn better you never know (I have been known to forget things, even last week I forgot where I left my keys) and I do love learning from those who are better and know more than I do.
On the other hand, I do have Aspergers, could it be that you were joking and I did not get it? In that case 400 batteries would have been way funnier.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: Oddity project status.

UMA sailboat has 3 batteries and they make it work. YouTube, Check it out. 36 footer sailboat. Plenty of others withouth 40 batteries make it work, I wonder how you calculated that. Perhaps you can share yout Math? I love learning.

I'm interested in your calculations. How big do you think your motor needs to be ? How big do you think the battery bank needs to be ? How much solar power do you plan to fit ?

I'm also intrigued with the concept of massive savings on propulsion costs. My 35ft sailboat hasn't had any diesel put in the tank since last Summer. The tank hold 100 litres and is currently just below half full. I'm finding it hard to imagine where there are massive savings to be made

If i owned a 35ft planing mobo i'd be using a lot of diesel, but i'd need a hell of a motor and a barge full of batteries to power it by electricity, so the numbers still wouldn't stack up.

 

[pvb]

Re: Oddity project status.

Hoooo I know the math, but as I could not understand yours I was simply wondering if you cared to explain it to me how you arrived at your conclusion for the size of motor and Battery bank. Maybe I need to learn better you never know (I have been known to forget things, even last week I forgot where I left my keys) and I do love learning from those who are better and know more than I do.
On the other hand, I do have Aspergers, could it be that you were joking and I did not get it? In that case 400 batteries would have been way funnier.

I'm not sure you'll be receptive to simple maths, it's easier to believe things you see on YouTube. But let's try. You said in post 934 that you want to be able to run under battery alone for 20NM at 5kts, so this requires 4 hours running. To drive your heavy boat (and it will be heavy with all those batteries) at 5kts you'll probably need to use around 10hp in calmish seas. 10hp is around 7.5kW, so you'll probably choose a 10kW electric motor. Running at 7.5kW, over 4 hours running you'll use 30kWh. At 12v, this needs 2500Ah of batteries (although you'd no doubt use a 48v motor to keep currents lower). A decent 100Ah deep cycle AGM battery (such as the Trojan 31-AGM) will only deliver around 70Ah if discharged over 4 hours, so you'd need 36 of them to supply the 2500Ah. But you might want to try to prolong their life by not discharging them so deeply, which is why I suggested you'd need 40 decent 12v batteries. At 30kg each, that's only 1200kg of extra weight. And at about £250 each, it's only £10K of batteries or, in simple maths, about half of your total budget.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Re: Oddity project status.

UMA sailboat has 3 batteries and they make it work. YouTube, Check it out. 36 footer sailboat. Plenty of others withouth 40 batteries make it work, I wonder how you calculated that. Perhaps you can share yout Math? I love learning.

Uma say 30 minutes is the most they've used theirs for and they don't give an average speed for that. You say 4 hours at 5kts. You say you know the maths. Let's see it. Something concrete, no 'to be decided'.

 

[Tranona]

Re: Oddity project status.

Tranona,
I don’t doubt your knowledge and I have said that before. You have absolutely my respect and I hope I did demonstrate that in the way I answered.

My problem with Calder is the methodology he used for the study and his own views. There have been a number of other studies that disputed his results with different energy savings gains and different conclusions.

As to being complicated, from a technical point of view its actually quite simple with the problem being the combination of elements put together to create a solution that becomes feasible and affordable.
There is already a good number of sailboats and whole forums dedicated to the subject of changing to Electric / battery bank. You even have Sailing UMA on YouTube half way across the oceans in 2 years with nothing but a little battery bank a controller that burned out once and an eBay forklift motor that at times was a direct train attached to whatever prop they had on. (they changed it now for optimised performance) 2 Kids and a 36 foot sailboat on the very cheap. No smelly Diesel.
You’re right when you say that the task of figuring out how to best fit the whole shebang and deciding on Battery bank size and Type is a bit of a nightmare. But the good news is once past that is literally green sailing.
We do intend to convert to Electric. Budget constraints make it more challenging and interesting to say the least but we are men to the challenge.
It is also where the future is. Until we solve Fuel Cell technology to a better degree I’m afraid I’m stuck with Diesel, hopeful on new graphite membranes that show good progress. There are also a number of boats using them instead of Diesel. But in there I do think the tech is not yet at a stage I would consider.
We took the decision not long ago, there are a couple of options we are inclined to pursue but by no means decided.
Ours aims are also simple, Hull Speed for port ops, Range of 20 NM at around 5KN and longer range at low speed. This for the battery bank. When it comes to the diesel and fitting it to a 33 footer 6.5 tons we’re expecting to be able to extend the ranges by using the Diesel as a GEN Unit and to recharge the battery bank. The adding of the Diesel is nothing but a security feature as we do intend to have a Sailboat as opposed to a Motorboat.
The fallacy is you don’t actually need to go to extremes to achieve this. Even with losses and without optimization a small battery bank should give you enough power to leave / enter harbour and sail the rest of the way without using the Diesel except for any emergency and by plugging it to the mains to recharge. It is a sailboat after all and the Primary means of propulsion are indeed its sails.
When used wisely, it has already been widely demonstrated that there are massive savings in fuel costs as you are not using fuel to charge the Battery bank. For the common Yachtsman that hops from port to port and plugs the boat on the mains instead of charging at sea.
We’re not looking to break new ground here neither, there are plenty of solutions already in use with readily available schematic’s for even lay sailors to put to good use.
It also comes down to the fact, we WANT to go Electric as much as possible. I feel that buying an EXTREMELY overpriced and inefficient Diesel motor that the only redeeming characteristic is the mass of energy stored on a small amount of liquid does not benefit me or my wallet in anyway.
Its also fun to mess around with stuff and making things work is it not?
This is more at less where we stand at the moment, I will post what we decide when we finally decide on components and battery bank size and type. THEN it would be rather nice to have a proper discussion on the merits of one against the other.

You are trying to solve a problem that simply does not exist by adding redundant complexity. It is NOT the future for sailboat auxiliaries. That is why you need to go back to first principles and also crucially gain some real experience of operating a 33' cruising boat. Then you will realise how ridiculous your assumptions are.

I know all about the hobbyists that use such things as fork truck motors loads of heavy old wet cell batteries and a Honda generator plus a bit of solar and maybe an attempt at regeneration though the prop. They all, by their own admission have severe limitations, particularly of range. This is OK if like many you are going to drift around the oceans living off fresh air, but hopelessly impractical in our kind of coastal cruising.

One of the biggest issues with cruising boats is shortage of space, so why are you proposing two engines to drive the boat when one is perfectly adequate and huge inefficient storage capacity for power that can easily be provided by much more energy dense diesel? Compare your range of 20 miles and as pvb says calculate the size of bank required to provide it with my 350 miles from my modest fuel tank. OK if you are just day sailing and plug into shorepower, but hopeless for serious cruising.

None of the serious players in the hybrid field is targeting yacht auxiliaries for all the sound reasons I have explained. They do not provide any advantage over diesel power and as I have patiently explained substantial disadvantages which you just seem to ignore.

It is all about the application and the focus is on motor boats particularly in the leisure market where electric consumption is a significant proportion of overall power requirement. Large displacement or SD boats with all electric services including power hungry things like AC are one target as are inland waterways craft which have long hours of low power propulsion requirements and space to fit big battery banks to store surplus electricity. Think the Greenline 33 for the former, and narrowboats for the latter.

Despite all this, the take up by the consumers is low primarily because of the significant additional cost which will never be recovered by any efficiency savings (mainly because there are not any as explained earlier) and partly complexity and higher maintenance costs. The only way you can reduce fuel costs is by using less fuel and that means less speed. as we have already established hybrids suffer power losses so given the power requirements to propel the boat are the same whether it is by an IC or an electric motor, difficult to see any saving at all.

You will, of course discover all of this for yourself if you ever actually put your "plan" into action, but my money is on the plan never getting further than out of your head onto the back of an envelope.

You seemingly enjoy dreaming up whimsical unworkable ideas - just don't kid yourself any of them will actually work.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

I'm interested in your calculations. How big do you think your motor needs to be ? How big do you think the battery bank needs to be ? How much solar power do you plan to fit ?

I'm also intrigued with the concept of massive savings on propulsion costs. My 35ft sailboat hasn't had any diesel put in the tank since last Summer. The tank hold 100 litres and is currently just below half full. I'm finding it hard to imagine where there are massive savings to be made

If i owned a 35ft planing mobo i'd be using a lot of diesel, but i'd need a hell of a motor and a barge full of batteries to power it by electricity, so the numbers still wouldn't stack up.

I'm not sure you'll be receptive to simple maths, it's easier to believe things you see on YouTube. But let's try. You said in post 934 that you want to be able to run under battery alone for 20NM at 5kts, so this requires 4 hours running. To drive your heavy boat (and it will be heavy with all those batteries) at 5kts you'll probably need to use around 10hp in calmish seas. 10hp is around 7.5kW, so you'll probably choose a 10kW electric motor. Running at 7.5kW, over 4 hours running you'll use 30kWh. At 12v, this needs 2500Ah of batteries (although you'd no doubt use a 48v motor to keep currents lower). A decent 100Ah deep cycle AGM battery (such as the Trojan 31-AGM) will only deliver around 70Ah if discharged over 4 hours, so you'd need 36 of them to supply the 2500Ah. But you might want to try to prolong their life by not discharging them so deeply, which is why I suggested you'd need 40 decent 12v batteries. At 30kg each, that's only 1200kg of extra weight. And at about £250 each, it's only £10K of batteries or, in simple maths, about half of your total budget.

You may want to try this to help you actually understand the complexity of the calculations. There are many others out there. But I guess this should help you.
Insert the stats for your boat and tell me if you need more then 4 deep cycle AGM batteries.
Use it before you comment… just saying, sometimes its better not to say anything then to make wild comments.

EXEL spreadsheet.
www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/EBOAT%20MODEL%20SPREADSHEET.xls

 

[pvb]

Re: Oddity project status.

You may want to try this to help you actually understand the complexity of the calculations. There are many others out there. But I guess this should help you.

Thanks, but I don't really need any help with such a simple calculation. I've explained in simple terms exactly why you'd need 40 decent 100Ah batteries to achieve your requirement of battery power for 20NM at 5kts.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: Oddity project status.

You may want to try this to help you actually understand the complexity of the calculations. There are many others out there. But I guess this should help you.
Insert the stats for your boat and tell me if you need more then 4 deep cycle AGM batteries.
Use it before you comment… just saying, sometimes its better not to say anything then to make wild comments.

EXEL spreadsheet.
www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/EBOAT%20MODEL%20SPREADSHEET.xls

Still interested in which motor, how many batteries etc you are planning to fit ?

Try another, really simple question, with 4 AGMs how far do you think you'll get on your boat and at what speed ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Re: Oddity project status.

Regardless of the progress made by Greg towards his goals (or lack of it), this is an outstandingly entertaining thread....!

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: Oddity project status.

Regardless of the progress made by Greg towards his goals (or lack of it), this is an outstandingly entertaining thread....!

In the same way that Monty Pythons Flying Circus was entertaining ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Re: Oddity project status.

Yes

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Re: Oddity project status.

In the same way that Monty Pythons Flying Circus was entertaining ?

Nope, Python's draw was the unpredictability.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Oddity project status.

You may want to try this to help you actually understand the complexity of the calculations. There are many others out there. But I guess this should help you.
Insert the stats for your boat and tell me if you need more then 4 deep cycle AGM batteries.
Use it before you comment… just saying, sometimes its better not to say anything then to make wild comments.

EXEL spreadsheet.
www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/EBOAT%20MODEL%20SPREADSHEET.xls

From the tables a run time of between 21 and 43 minutes dependant on DOD between 50 and 100% so assuming you are going to want to conserve your batteries let's assume you will go for 50% DOD which gives 21minutes. For 20 NM at 5Knts that is 4 Hrs or 240 minutes, 240/21 * 4 = No of batteries required which is a little more than 40.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

You are trying to solve a problem that simply does not exist by adding redundant complexity. It is NOT the future for sailboat auxiliaries. That is why you need to go back to first principles and also crucially gain some real experience of operating a 33' cruising boat. Then you will realise how ridiculous your assumptions are.

I know all about the hobbyists that use such things as fork truck motors loads of heavy old wet cell batteries and a Honda generator plus a bit of solar and maybe an attempt at regeneration though the prop. They all, by their own admission have severe limitations, particularly of range. This is OK if like many you are going to drift around the oceans living off fresh air, but hopelessly impractical in our kind of coastal cruising.

One of the biggest issues with cruising boats is shortage of space, so why are you proposing two engines to drive the boat when one is perfectly adequate and huge inefficient storage capacity for power that can easily be provided by much more energy dense diesel? Compare your range of 20 miles and as pvb says calculate the size of bank required to provide it with my 350 miles from my modest fuel tank. OK if you are just day sailing and plug into shorepower, but hopeless for serious cruising.

None of the serious players in the hybrid field is targeting yacht auxiliaries for all the sound reasons I have explained. They do not provide any advantage over diesel power and as I have patiently explained substantial disadvantages which you just seem to ignore.

It is all about the application and the focus is on motor boats particularly in the leisure market where electric consumption is a significant proportion of overall power requirement. Large displacement or SD boats with all electric services including power hungry things like AC are one target as are inland waterways craft which have long hours of low power propulsion requirements and space to fit big battery banks to store surplus electricity. Think the Greenline 33 for the former, and narrowboats for the latter.

Despite all this, the take up by the consumers is low primarily because of the significant additional cost which will never be recovered by any efficiency savings (mainly because there are not any as explained earlier) and partly complexity and higher maintenance costs. The only way you can reduce fuel costs is by using less fuel and that means less speed. as we have already established hybrids suffer power losses so given the power requirements to propel the boat are the same whether it is by an IC or an electric motor, difficult to see any saving at all.

You will, of course discover all of this for yourself if you ever actually put your "plan" into action, but my money is on the plan never getting further than out of your head onto the back of an envelope.

You seemingly enjoy dreaming up whimsical unworkable ideas - just don't kid yourself any of them will actually work.

One being a Diesel engine which has the space, used as a GEN unit, the other a small electric motor or two which in my boat is not a problem to fit. There are Colvic’s fitted with 2 Diesels even. The huge engine compartment on the Countess can easily accommodate that with space to spare. I fail to see the argument on space in my particular case. And still fit my dinghy on top.
You’re confusing the argument when you point at the Commercial interests of a Diesel engine manufacturer or even the commercial uptake of a solution that I consider designed not to interfere with the Diesel Engine market which happens to be what they produce, sell, and use to buy melons with. With the capabilities in house that they have, the knowledge they accumulated over the years I am surprised they did not come out with something minimally disruptive. But then again why kill the goose? At this stage we’re no longer talking benefits of Diesel V Electric. You are actually telling me that a principle considered obsolete since 1943, as you well know, is actually the motor I should buy.
None of the serious players in the hybrid field is targeting yacht auxiliaries BECAUSE it’s not in their interest. They sell DIESEL engines. Not because the technology is not there.
I’m afraid there’s a slant in that argument. Before Tesla arrived on the market none of the BIG auto makers were even trying to produce an Electric vehicle. They were also saying exactly what we’ve been told on the marine field. Tried and tested, can’t beat it, disadvantages and even more outrageous things. Until Tesla showed up. As the market was disrupted now they all racing to catch up and battery tech is jumping as we speak. Now they ALL have Electric vehicles and are racing against each other. 50m range 10 years ago, now it’s hundreds. AS you know, the market for sailboats, is dominated by a few brands with strategic interests in keeping it exactly that way. They are reproducing the lessons of the car industry, a few models to show priced over range as a “show” of here you have it and that’s the best you get, and hopping that no Marine type Tesla would show up on the market and make them run for the hills as Tesla did to all the Big car companies. Its not even about how good and stable the systems are, it’s the fact they were left behind and people RUN in the Opposite direction.
Sadly the Marine market is not big enough for that sort of investment and its left to small fringe companies that even lack the resources to compete properly with even the smaller brands. Should that happen, Like for like, smaller range but same price? You would have a mountain of Diesels to dispose of.

4 to 6 batteries or even 10 (yeah lets go crazy) is STILL cheaper then any new Diesel engine. I do have the space even for that. Over the keel would fit like a charm for a 10 or even 20 battery bank.

Everything has its limitations as a system, if you look at just electric of course is extremely limited when compared to the range of Diesel, but having said that, having a Diesel and an electric motor that would allow to be run independently as propulsion or Gen unit to power the electric motor stills seems the best way to bridge that gap.

I appreciate your answers, for many a year I have read your posts and always found them accurate and to the point. I appreciate your point of view as well. Technically we could discuss the pros and cons ad aeternum of Diesel v Electric. But I see no point in that, I much rather have you laugh at our futile attempts to make it all work without setting fire to the sails.

PS- From the Diesel argument the one I like the most is selling an overpriced tractor engine above the price of a car, then they tell you its so easy to repair anywhere in the world.
Like the world does not have more readily available mechs for the Auto industry and cheaper with cheaper “unmarinated “prices for spares. I like that.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

From the tables a run time of between 21 and 43 minutes dependant on DOD between 50 and 100% so assuming you are going to want to conserve your batteries let's assume you will go for 50% DOD which gives 21minutes. For 20 NM at 5Knts that is 4 Hrs or 240 minutes, 240/21 * 4 = No of batteries required which is a little more than 40.

No, you have either not read well or I failed to get the point across, were using the Diesel as a GEN unit to power the electric motor, were using the reference of 20 NM as a reference for Gen use. Therefore, Hybrid Electric. My bad if such is the case. But Hybrid Electric IS what we are going for exactly not to be completely dependent on Battery bank alone. You need to factor that. We mean to use battery power simply for port ops. not Long range. No sense in doing a Hybrid unit if not to be used.

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

I hear the Keel calling cya later's

 

[pvb]

Re: Oddity project status.

Ours aims are also simple, Hull Speed for port ops, Range of 20 NM at around 5KN and longer range at low speed. This for the battery bank. When it comes to the diesel and fitting it to a 33 footer 6.5 tons we’re expecting to be able to extend the ranges by using the Diesel as a GEN Unit and to recharge the battery bank. The adding of the Diesel is nothing but a security feature as we do intend to have a Sailboat as opposed to a Motorboat.

No, you have either not read well or I failed to get the point across, were using the Diesel as a GEN unit to power the electric motor, were using the reference of 20 NM as a reference for Gen use. Therefore, Hybrid Electric. My bad if such is the case. But Hybrid Electric IS what we are going for exactly not to be completely dependent on Battery bank alone. You need to factor that. We mean to use battery power simply for port ops. not Long range. No sense in doing a Hybrid unit if not to be used.

Ah, so now you're changing your story to fit the facts we've presented. Classic!

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Oddity project status.

Ah, so now you're changing your story to fit the facts we've presented. Classic!

Lol Dude, seriously? Hybrid? from the start?

look at mine and Tranona posts. ^^