Boatyard won’t release boat

[Mark-1]

I understood the contract to be in writing. Perhaps we have very different ideas of "very simple" - two separate conditional clauses based on launching and performance for a boat which is not imminently to be launched seems a bit tricky to me.

Yes. If these two guys want to make life hard for themselves they have chosen an arrangement that gives them plenty of scope to do so.

So, in practice, do they want difficult lives or do they want to sell/buy a boat with minimal bother? The former is certainly possible, but least likely IMHO.

 

[Tranona]

I understood the contract to be in writing. Perhaps we have very different ideas of "very simple" - two separate conditional clauses based on launching and performance for a boat which is not imminently to be launched seems a bit tricky to me.

No, the contract is not in writing as far as I can tell. Read the first exchanges - it is only the BoS that is in writing using the RYA format. The contract is verbal and any construction of it is based solely on what the OP has told us and the assumption that the seller has agreed - nothing to suggest the contrary. At the risk of repeating myself there is nothing unusual about the contract nor the conditions. Just ask any broker.

Almost all boat transactions have things like remedial work. yard bills etc to settle between the contract being signed and handover date, and as I said earlier the BoS may well be signed before that date for convenience. The big difference here is that the OP has paid for the boat (except the retention) before the seller has fulfilled his side of the contract. With a brokered sale this would not happen as both the deposit and the main payment would be held in a client account and would not be released until the handover. Therefore the issue of unpaid bills would be resolved before any payment is made to the seller. In most cases a broker would sit down with the buyer and seller, go through everything to ensure all conditions had been met, sign the BoS and hand over the keys. However no reason why it cannot be done at a distance provided the same process of checking is followed. Not unusual for the broker to also settle all the yard and tradesman bills as well using the funds in the client account (which is of course the seller's money at that point).

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Just a thought...

The debt is owed by the 'previous' owner, not his boat. The yard is holding onto the boat. We don't know if they've gone so far as to put a notice/chain/whatever on it.

If his (the PO) new racy boat is the same marina a bit of sweet talking could see that, possibly more valuable, boat used as their security.

 

[Fanny Haddock]

We never heard the value of the boat, did we? I think this tends to be a problem at the level I'm guessing we're talking about, i.e. not worth enough for a broker to want to become involved. Not enough to for anyone to get involved with what is basically an escrow account service.

Do brokers offer a simple 'fixed fee' service where they don't have to do any work or cover themselves for liabilities?

How many of such cases actually go bad in real life? I mean, if you had some crooked mates in a boat yard, you could sell the same boat several time and always have "problems" with the yard that meant it couldn't be released.

Giving a complete stranger enough money - what was in essence a free, unsecured loan to go buy a new boat before he'd let the old one go - was the mistake! Deposits only need to be token amounts, & no more than one is willing to lose on a gamble.

I doubt most buyers of cheap boats would be interested in using a formal escrow service either, but doing a payment through something like Paypal would ensure some kind of buyer security. There may be cheaper. What do they charge, 3.4% from off the seller? £170 on a £5,000 boat. One could argue over splitting the costs of doing so.

 

[nortada]

Friend of mine had a similar problem.

He bought a boat abandoned ashore in a foreign boatyard but when he came to launch, discovered that considerable storage expenses still needed to be paid.

The recently divorced previous owner pleaded poverty. When it was explained to the yard, realising something was better than nothing, they agreed to splash the boat, at the new owners expense and forgo the outstanding storage expenses.

This got the new owner off the hook.

Subsequently I heard that, as a deterrent to others, the yard pursued the original owner through the courts - good money following badDon’t know the final outcome.

No good in this case, but one solution could have been for the yard to seize the boat, in lieu of out standing debt, sell it on, take their cut and send the remaining funds to the original owner.

As this all happened in a foreign jurisdiction, could make subsequent legal ownership interesting

 

[Fanny Haddock]

Who did he buy it from?

 

[Mark-1]

I might have misinterpreted the situation.

I thought the OP hadn't given a collection date yet, in which case it's entirely reasonable that the yard fees hadn't been paid.

Re reading the posts it looks as though the seller is saying something like "please don't give me a collection date because I can't cover the yard fees yet".

If it's the latter then clearly it's not the case that the sale might go wrong in future. Rather, the sale has already gone wrong and the OP is losing precious summertime use of the boat.

I'm still pretty confident the seller will pay his yard fee in the end - what choice does he have - but there could be a long frustrating wait before that happens. All complicated by the fact they've been pally working on the boat together which makes immediate Small Claims Court to recoup the 90pc a bit awkward.

Maybe the OP can clarify, have you said "I wish to pick the boat up next Friday, can you settle your yard fee in advance of that " and if so what was the response.

 

[Tranona]

Do brokers offer a simple 'fixed fee' service where they don't have to do any work or cover themselves for liabilities?

Some do, particularly smaller independent brokers and charge according to the amount of work involved. A straightforward sale with good clear documentation would probably cost £2-300. The key thing is that this gets access to the broker's client account which provides security for both parties.

In this case though the seller seems to have been delighted with most of the money up front and has probably already spent it on his new boat leaving the OP in limbo with a boat he cannot take possession of until the seller settles the yard bills.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In this case though the seller seems to have been delighted with most of the money up front and has probably already spent it on his new boat leaving the OP in limbo with a boat he cannot take possession of until the seller settles the yard bills.

Ah, the joys of perfectly standard and simple verbal contracts, eh? I still wonder who owns the boat right now.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Some do, particularly smaller independent brokers and charge according to the amount of work involved. A straightforward sale with good clear documentation would probably cost £2-300. The key thing is that this gets access to the broker's client account which provides security for both parties.

In this case though the seller seems to have been delighted with most of the money up front and has probably already spent it on his new boat leaving the OP in limbo with a boat he cannot take possession of until the seller settles the yard bills.

Any comment on my post #123? The yard may have his 'new' boat within their grasp. Does the law have a view on which of his two boats the yard could detain - does it have to be the one that caused the debt - given that the debt is owed by the man and not his boat? (Obviously they could detain both if the size of debt warranted that, but it doesn't seem to here).

 

[Refueler]

Any comment on my post #123? The yard may have his 'new' boat within their grasp. Does the law have a view on which of his two boats the yard could detain - does it have to be the one that caused the debt - given that the debt is owed by the man and not his boat? (Obviously they could detain both if the size of debt warranted that, but it doesn't seem to here).

No idea on OP's / Sellers ... but I seem to remember that when I was using UK Marina - the agreement I had with Marina had both my name AND the Boats ....

 

[JumbleDuck]

Any comment on my post #123? The yard may have his 'new' boat within their grasp. Does the law have a view on which of his two boats the yard could detain - does it have to be the one that caused the debt - given that the debt is owed by the man and not his boat? (Obviously they could detain both if the size of debt warranted that, but it doesn't seem to here).

If the debt was owned by the man and not the boat, how could they (effectively) seize the boat under new ownership?

 

[Mark-1]

If the debt was owned by the man and not the boat, how could they (effectively) seize the boat under new ownership?

I don't think they can legally, but if you were a lorry driver picking up a boat and the boat yard said "Sorry you can't come in today we're closed." or "There's a legal dispute over ownership of this boat." or "sorry the barrier's stuck down, it's being fixed next week." What you gonna do?

I'd still like to hear from the OP how clearly he's said he wants the boat on a specific date and how clearly the seller has said that's not possible.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

If the debt was owned by the man and not the boat, how could they (effectively) seize the boat under new ownership?

Dunno how the law treats it, but the boat doesn't pay the bills. The boat is just a pawn in the game to recover the debt. That must be the case because if a seized boat sold by a yard didn't realise enough cash to clear the owner's account they would pursue the owner for the balance.

My point was that they may have a choice of boats to restrain, and I'd hope that the law would agree that they should not be choosing the one that's (almost) sold. Chaining his new toy to the pontoon would probably more effective anyway - crew and sailing club gossip groups to explain it to etc..

 

[penberth3]

Dunno how the law treats it, but the boat doesn't pay the bills. The boat is just a pawn in the game to recover the debt. That must be the case because if a seized boat sold by a yard didn't realise enough cash to clear the owner's account they would pursue the owner for the balance.

My point was that they may have a choice of boats to restrain, and I'd hope that the law would agree that they should not be choosing the one that's (almost) sold. Chaining his new toy to the pontoon would probably more effective anyway - crew and sailing club gossip groups to explain it to etc..

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There is definitely a procedure for arresting commercial boats/vessels. I think that only extends to the vessel connected with the dispute, but I'm not sure. Chasing an imaginary second boat, ownership and location unknown, isn't the way to go. Something for you to research if you're interested.

 

[PilotWolf]

Totally different but I was being screwed on some freelance wages years ago.

The company was known for being late payers but it got ridiculous and then they tried to delay further by arguing expenses, etc.

Having had enough I emailed MD and gave him 24 hrs to pay me or I’d have the boat arrested and as they were behind a lock it would have been even easier. I think by this time they knew how pissed I was and callEd my ‘boss’ who I normally worked for and had lent me to them to ask if he thought I was serious. He said yep!

The money was in my account within a couple of hours!

W.

 

[Mark-1]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There is definitely a procedure for arresting commercial boats/vessels. I think that only extends to the vessel connected with the dispute, but I'm not sure. Chasing an imaginary second boat, ownership and location unknown, isn't the way to go. Something for you to research if you're interested.

I googled leins, I don't think there's a lein here. The yard have just said they won't cooperate with moving the boat until the fees are paid.

Given ownership has already changed (well maybe) I can't see how the yard could even a get a lein on this boat.

I really don't think the way out of this is via courts. I suspect the OP and seller will need to agree a date for picking the boat up - perhaps after the sellers next payday or whatever. Not perfect but practical.

If a legal solution is chosen then best thing for the OP might be to go to the small claims court for the return of his 90pc. That's cheap and easy.

(I'm not remotely qualified or knowledgeable in this area - I just can't resist expressing my opinions.)

 

[Caraway]

I'm not remotely qualified or knowledgeable in this area - I just can't resist expressing my opinions.

That doesn't mark you out on these forums ?

 

[Birdseye]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. There is definitely a procedure for arresting commercial boats/vessels.

I agree with you except that this procedure applies to any vessels and not just commercial ones. The boatyard has the ability to arrest the boat whilst bills for work on it remain unpaid. The ownership of the boat isnt releb]vant in the procedure as I understand it. But have a look at this for some proper detail.

There always is the old saying " posession is 9 tenths" and the yard has posession.

 

[Mark-1]

I agree with you except that this procedure applies to any vessels and not just commercial ones. The boatyard has the ability to arrest the boat whilst bills for work on it remain unpaid. The ownership of the boat isnt releb]vant in the procedure as I understand it. But have a look at this for some proper detail.

Great link, thanks. I don't think either procedure apply in this case. The first certainly doesn't which leaves "Statutory right to proceed in rem" which appears not to apply either.

In contrast (seemingly) leins can be applied against any property owned by the debtor. But that doesn't seem to have happened here either and it's (probably) too late now.

All academic because, legal or not, the Yard aren't going to cooperate with getting this boat out of their yard, and if the OP wanted to take some kind of legal action he would not choose to force the yard to cooperate when it's simpler to get his 90pc back from seller in the small claims court.