Boat Share in the Canaries - thoughts?

[webcraft]

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Boris and brexit have somewhat knocked our retirement plans out of joint.

Two and a half years ago, when no-one really believed a hard brexit could ever happen, we bought an old Morgan Giles 30 to do up and sail to the Canaries, where we intended to keep her and use her as a Winter escape with possible Summer cruises to Madeira and the Azores. She is now ready to go.

Of course, when we made these plans we were free to waft around the EU as we wished. It has gradually been brought home that this is no longer going to be the case and our residence in the Canaries and other European islands will be limited to 90 days in any 180, or 6 months a year tops.

So - it would seem to make perfect sense to share the boat with another person or couple with the same vision, enabling us both to spend up to six months a year on board Avy-J either enjoying her as a floating holiday cottage or cruising the Canaries and further afield.

Any comments or thoughts re. upsides or downsides of the idea welcome, PM me if you like.


- W

 

[capnsensible]

I reckon its a great idea and a good way to share costs. There is a yacht joint owned just a couple of berths down from us (Canarian Island) ad it works fine for them.

Dunno if you've seen the RYA pro forma for a yacht syndicate agreement? Their lawyers would have been all over this so reckon its probably as good as it gets:

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollecti...ENT FOR THE SYNDICATE OWNERSHIP OF A BOAT.pdf

Good luck!

 

[V1701]

You have my sympathy, I'm having a related dilemma myself. I wonder if it might be worth you having a look at the non-lucrative spanish visa and the D7 Portuguese visa if you haven't already. I hope you find a workable solution...

 

[RupertW]

I reckon its a great idea and a good way to share costs. There is a yacht joint owned just a couple of berths down from us (Canarian Island) ad it works fine for them.

Dunno if you've seen the RYA pro forma for a yacht syndicate agreement? Their lawyers would have been all over this so reckon its probably as good as it gets:

https://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollecti...ENT FOR THE SYNDICATE OWNERSHIP OF A BOAT.pdf

Good luck!

Is that the Irish one?

 

[mbroom]

I think your Brexit stuff is a red herring and an excuse, and maybe you are trying to score a political point. I was against Brexit, but we don’t know what is in the future. If people can sail in Thailand for years, then Europe may not be a problem. I have a boat in Greece , so am not unconcerned.

selling a half share in your boat is another matter completely, and may or may not work.

Quite frankly, if you are knocking on a bit in years (I am as well) just sail there. I shared a boat once... never again, and certainly not for 5k!

 

[RupertW]

I think your Brexit stuff is a red herring and an excuse, and maybe you are trying to score a political point. I was against Brexit, but we don’t know what is in the future. If people can sail in Thailand for years, then Europe may not be a problem. I have a boat in Greece , so am not unconcerned.

selling a half share in your boat is another matter completely, and may or may not work.

Quite frankly, if you are knocking on a bit in years (I am as well) just sail there. I shared a boat once... never again, and certainly not for 5k!

Of course it’s not a red herring - the EU rules have been settled for years. 90 days in every 180 - which is not what a lot of us expected or planned in retirement. Fine if you expect to cruise in the same country for years and can get residence but the cruising life gets much harder.

 

[webcraft]

I think your Brexit stuff is a red herring and an excuse, and maybe you are trying to score a political point. I was against Brexit, but we don’t know what is in the future. If people can sail in Thailand for years, then Europe may not be a problem. I have a boat in Greece , so am not unconcerned.

selling a half share in your boat is another matter completely, and may or may not work.

Quite frankly, if you are knocking on a bit in years (I am as well) just sail there. I shared a boat once... never again, and certainly not for 5k!

We can be pretty certain freedom of movement within the EU will end on Dec 31st and normal Schengen non-visa travel rules will apply.

90 days in any 180 means the boat will be unattended for at least six months. So - marina phones, there's a problem, whoops, all my Schengen time is used up, I can't fly out to deal with it. Spend three months in the Canaries and even a trip to Ireland is impossible for the next three months.

Not making a political point, just a practical point.


- W

 

[mbroom]

Of course it’s not a red herring - the EU rules have been settled for years. 90 days in every 180 - which is not what a lot of us expected or planned in retirement. Fine if you expect to cruise in the same country for years and can get residence but the cruising life gets much harder.

We may, or may not get a visa which gets around this 90 day restriction. We just do not know yet. I spent the last 15 years working full time in non-eu countries. My longest was 3 years in one country, Hopefully after the dust of Brexit settles, most countries will be pragmatic about this issue. On a recent sailing trip to Egypt, I saw many brits who stayed full-time. Brexit is a pain, but I think you are creating imaginary barriers. If you want to sail, just go for it. If you don’t, then keep the boat at home.

Possibly the OP has his reasons for sharing his boat, but I personally would not use Brexit as an issue until we know for certain what the situation is. I already have a boat in Greece and am concerned about this issue, but I would not make any serious changes to my plans on suppositions.

 

[mbroom]

We can be pretty certain freedom of movement within the EU will end on Dec 31st and normal Schengen non-visa travel rules will apply.

90 days in any 180 means the boat will be unattended for at least six months. So - marina phones, there's a problem, whoops, all my Schengen time is used up, I can't fly out to deal with it. Spend three months in the Canaries and even a trip to Ireland is impossible for the next three months.

Not making a political point, just a practical point.


- W

Would you really fly out to deal with,say, a mooring problem at a moments notice? Ireland is in a common travel area with the UK, perhaps this will change, but I have seen no evidence yet. Get out there and sail!

 

[Irish Rover]

We can be pretty certain freedom of movement within the EU will end on Dec 31st and normal Schengen non-visa travel rules will apply.

90 days in any 180 means the boat will be unattended for at least six months. So - marina phones, there's a problem, whoops, all my Schengen time is used up, I can't fly out to deal with it. Spend three months in the Canaries and even a trip to Ireland is impossible for the next three months.

Not making a political point, just a practical point.

- W

Not so I think. Under the common travel area arrangements you'll always be welcome in Ireland - we're such nice hospitable people.

 

[claymore]

Webbie trying to score a political point - perish the thought.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Just advertising a share in a unsuitable boat.?

 

[RobbieW]

We may, or may not get a visa which gets around this 90 day restriction. We just do not know yet. I spent the last 15 years working full time in non-eu countries. My longest was 3 years in one country, Hopefully after the dust of Brexit settles, most countries will be pragmatic about this issue. On a recent sailing trip to Egypt, I saw many brits who stayed full-time. Brexit is a pain, but I think you are creating imaginary barriers. If you want to sail, just go for it. If you don’t, then keep the boat at home.

Possibly the OP has his reasons for sharing his boat, but I personally would not use Brexit as an issue until we know for certain what the situation is. I already have a boat in Greece and am concerned about this issue, but I would not make any serious changes to my plans on suppositions.

One difference is that within Scengen there is no existing mechanism for visitor visas other than that described. Working visas are different and generally issued country by country and, within Schengen, without freedom of movement within the area.

One answer, followed by many in Portugal and Greece to a lesser extent, is residency within one of the EU member states. That still doesnt confer freedom of movement in the rest of Schengen though. Done to death in Liveaboard

 

[webcraft]

Not so I think. Under the common travel area arrangements you'll always be welcome in Ireland - we're such nice hospitable people.

Yes, on checking is seems that the CTA will remain unaffected. One bright spot on the otherwise gloomy horizon. Thanks for pointing that out.

- W

 

[webcraft]

Webbie trying to score a political point - perish the thought.

Claymore making a relevant or sensible comment?

Not going to happen!


- W

 

[mbroom]

One difference is that within Scengen there is no existing mechanism for visitor visas other than that described. Working visas are different and generally issued country by country and, within Schengen, without freedom of movement within the area.

One answer, followed by many in Portugal and Greece to a lesser extent, is residency within one of the EU member states. That still doesnt confer freedom of movement in the rest of Schengen though. Done to death in Liveaboard

I agree that the whole thing is a pain, and we will have a painful period of uncertainty. However for this year nothing will change. Some countries have special Schengen arrangements, such as Australia, so there are precedents to exceptions. Look at the number of UK boats in parts of Spain and Greece, if strict Shengen rules were applied, then many would leave causing a large hole in the local economies. I suspect residence permits will become easier and very popular...

 

[capnsensible]

Is that the Irish one?

Um?

 

[lw395]

So Webfoot doesn't really like being in Scotland that much after all.

Practically, consider more than one additional owner.

 

[capnsensible]

I agree that the whole thing is a pain, and we will have a painful period of uncertainty. However for this year nothing will change. Some countries have special Schengen arrangements, such as Australia, so there are precedents to exceptions. Look at the number of UK boats in parts of Spain and Greece, if strict Shengen rules were applied, then many would leave causing a large hole in the local economies. I suspect residence permits will become easier and very popular...

Have you actually been to a marina in Spain and counted the number of Brit boats?

Hot news. Its nowhere near the number most people dream up.

 

[dunedin]

We can be pretty certain freedom of movement within the EU will end on Dec 31st and normal Schengen non-visa travel rules will apply.

90 days in any 180 means the boat will be unattended for at least six months. So - marina phones, there's a problem, whoops, all my Schengen time is used up, I can't fly out to deal with it. Spend three months in the Canaries and even a trip to Ireland is impossible for the next three months.

Not making a political point, just a practical point.
- W

If your heart was in your cruising pans, perhaps don't give up your dream too soon. You may regret it later.
Clearly there will be substantial adverse implications for people with long term cruising plans, particularly in the Mediterranean and/or Baltic. And one would have to be a huge optimist to expect any exemption for Brits to the core Schengen 90/180 rules. But perhaps you are looking too much on the pessimistic side.

As others have noted Ireland is unlikely to be an issue - as not in Schengen and having the Common Travel Area.
And if you work on 12 weeks (ie 84 days) in 180 for your main trips, that would still leave a reserve for any emergency trips back - to boats, ill relatives or whatever.

And your choice of cruising ground being the Canaries has the huge advantage (as far as I am aware) of having an all year sailing season - hence you could get 25 weeks on board per year. From what I have seen of the Canaries, it is a lovely location but very few safe anchorages - hence that might be as much as most people might want to live on board a small boat in a (warm) marina.
Then there is the fact that some countries, such as Spain, seem to be showing signs of being amenable to extended single country visas. Too soon to say (and we could yet fall out over Gibraltar) but will know more in 12 months time.

Finally, having got to the Canaries, after a while watching all the other boats heading west you will probably decide not to bash back East but instead to unfurl the jib and sail gently West to the Caribbean for a few seasons, leaving Brexit constraints far behind. Being sole owner may make this easier to decide.

One thing that might be worth considering though could be getting your ship into EU27 waters before the end of the year to maintain EU VAT status. The sums might not be huge in this case, but you will probably object to re-paying VAT on principle and the hassles of exiting EU after 18 months could be tricky. Even getting as far as Dublin on your voyage (or West France) by December 2020 might make life simpler.

Happy voyaging