jonic
Well-Known Member
Another two in discussions over good offers now as well.....I'm running out of stock!
Boat prices
- Thread starter Way
- Start date
Another two in discussions over good offers now as well.....I'm running out of stock!
Way
Well-Known Member
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
We just sold Galadriel (sob sob) via Apollo Duck. We posted lots of photos, a clean empty boat and full description. It was priced sensibly to sell (you either want to sell or you dont, but dont dream). It was up for sale for 4 months before we had our offer, very close to asking price. There was at the time another boat with a broker, same make, model, year but nowhere near the same level of kit or upgrades, it was considerably more and is still up for sale.
Way
Well-Known Member
As promised - I've now sold the Hurley. At £2,500. I had two offers of £2,500 - the first I rejected and then lost the buyer. The second I have now accepted.
As background. I got one query through Apollo duck in a month and a half - that query is now my buyer.
The other queries were via the forums here
As background. I got one query through Apollo duck in a month and a half - that query is now my buyer.
The other queries were via the forums here
I had a long chat with a Solent based proprietor of a small marine business and he offered a different view on the subject. Simply put the sailing landscape has changed and this is reflected in mid market yacht prices.
It does not help to regurgitate tiresome old received wisdom on this subject such as "its the smelly old boats on the market", "its lazy brokers" or "its deluded owners". These are constants of the last 20 years and do not explain recent changes. Simply put the private UK based family sailing yacht is an endangered species. The 1970's notion that a family of 4 will enjoy dedicating most of their leisure time and spare cash running a Trident 24 or Westerly Konsort while maintaining a conventional working life ashore, is history.
Today's UK sailing activity is focused around bucket-list tick boxes or Facebook calibre events hence we see sailing schools prepping sailors for a Fastnet or RIB operators offering a neatly timeboxed experience afloat.
Prior to my chat with the Solent marine pro I had thought yacht prices were just a reflection of the boomer generation retiring from sailing and the economic reality facing the next wannabe generation of UK boat owners, but I think these economic fundamentals are also combined with a change in lifestyles. What was deemed fun afloat in 1975 is considered hardship today with the added insult of poor internet connectivity.
It does not help to regurgitate tiresome old received wisdom on this subject such as "its the smelly old boats on the market", "its lazy brokers" or "its deluded owners". These are constants of the last 20 years and do not explain recent changes. Simply put the private UK based family sailing yacht is an endangered species. The 1970's notion that a family of 4 will enjoy dedicating most of their leisure time and spare cash running a Trident 24 or Westerly Konsort while maintaining a conventional working life ashore, is history.
Today's UK sailing activity is focused around bucket-list tick boxes or Facebook calibre events hence we see sailing schools prepping sailors for a Fastnet or RIB operators offering a neatly timeboxed experience afloat.
Prior to my chat with the Solent marine pro I had thought yacht prices were just a reflection of the boomer generation retiring from sailing and the economic reality facing the next wannabe generation of UK boat owners, but I think these economic fundamentals are also combined with a change in lifestyles. What was deemed fun afloat in 1975 is considered hardship today with the added insult of poor internet connectivity.
Otter
Well-Known Member
Some flawed logic there, he seemed to be saying that the "experience" market has replaced much of the family yacht market, then why are marinas still being built? Why do most of the existing ones have occupancy rates that hotels and airlines would kill for? Why are most berthing fees eye wateringly high?
What has disappeared is the willingness to endure slum conditions many where a family of four were expected to "enjoy" a fortnight in a 24 footer. Oh my goodness those were not the days. There is now a huge glut of 22 to 30 foot 1970's and early 80's boats that are old fashioned whilst not being Classic in any way. They are slow, cramped, usually dirty and uncool and they sell for peanuts.
Meanwhile huge marinas around the country are filled with shiny Ben/Jen/Bav boats that are comfortable, relaxing and quite fun to sail. They are owned by families as extensions of their lifestyle, just like the 1970's only now they have other interests as well - and the boat is comfy! There are a whole lot of early GRP boats that we are going to see fall into disuse, they are still churning out new ones and the old ones aren't rotting!
What has disappeared is the willingness to endure slum conditions many where a family of four were expected to "enjoy" a fortnight in a 24 footer. Oh my goodness those were not the days. There is now a huge glut of 22 to 30 foot 1970's and early 80's boats that are old fashioned whilst not being Classic in any way. They are slow, cramped, usually dirty and uncool and they sell for peanuts.
Meanwhile huge marinas around the country are filled with shiny Ben/Jen/Bav boats that are comfortable, relaxing and quite fun to sail. They are owned by families as extensions of their lifestyle, just like the 1970's only now they have other interests as well - and the boat is comfy! There are a whole lot of early GRP boats that we are going to see fall into disuse, they are still churning out new ones and the old ones aren't rotting!
SimonD
Well-Known Member
Another thing that seems to have changed since the 70's is the practical ability of potential boat owners. In my experience, the 'younger generation' in general has less ability to do practical stuff (as well as time and inclination). My thirty something son in law's first reaction to any practical problem is to reach for his iPad and Google plumber, locksmith, whatever (and I doubt very much he's alone).
Someone with this level of technical ability would look at an older boat and see huge expense getting up to an acceptable standard. I've spent a bit over a quarter of the purchase price of my twenty year old Moody getting her up to scratch. If I hadn't done the work myself, it would have cost two or three times that and I'd have looked for a Bavaria.
Someone with this level of technical ability would look at an older boat and see huge expense getting up to an acceptable standard. I've spent a bit over a quarter of the purchase price of my twenty year old Moody getting her up to scratch. If I hadn't done the work myself, it would have cost two or three times that and I'd have looked for a Bavaria.
Big capital projects have long lead times hence the investment in a new marina can be mistimed, look at all the shale gas exploration in the US funded by investments bonds now at junk status.Marina berth prices seem to have flatended out.
I and others in this thread sense that supply & demand in the UK yachting business is evening out.
The demographic/economic fundamentals effecting our country can only be bad news for mainstream yachting business. I am not sure of the UK figure but home ownership in the UK has fallen to a 40 year low. Those with the wealth are getting too old to enjoy sailing.
There are counter trends, Jonic is doing well because his market segment benefits from the polarization of wealth phenomina which is a 30 year trend that seems unstoppable.
I and others in this thread sense that supply & demand in the UK yachting business is evening out.
The demographic/economic fundamentals effecting our country can only be bad news for mainstream yachting business. I am not sure of the UK figure but home ownership in the UK has fallen to a 40 year low. Those with the wealth are getting too old to enjoy sailing.
There are counter trends, Jonic is doing well because his market segment benefits from the polarization of wealth phenomina which is a 30 year trend that seems unstoppable.
Otter
Well-Known Member
South coast marina betts getting any cheaper?
No longer outpacing inflation prepresents a rate of change. The aforementioned Solent businesman would say each lost family yacht is replaced by 2 RIBs in a marina berth.
Prices can soften in various ways, I popped over to Lymington last week to take advantage of a cheap deal on lift and jetwash. Can you believe it Lymington the high temple of UK marine leisure polarization of wealth doing deals! Changes are afoot though we will have to wait another 5 years for conclusive evidence.
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
Sums it up for me.
If my cabbage was ever to buy a boat (and I doubt she would), it would have to be shiny, clean and maintained by someone else.
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Keel
New Member
Having started looking again, I am struck by the changes since I last bought a boat. My first comment is about dealers and brokers. A few years back, I often had the impression that I was doing the dealer or broker a favour, whereas now my experience is very difeerent; with only one exception, they have been courteous, helpful and frank. Even all my calls have been returned. Is this a maturing of the approach to a customer or the need to respond to a different market?
As to asking prices, there does seem to be no pattern at all other than some "unrealistic" ones and, in the area that I am looking at, a big variation. Comments made are that the market has changed with people choosing to spend it on adventures abroad instead of owning boats, the perforance cruiser market is not there anymore, etc.
What really has changed is berthing on the south coast. When I bought my last boat a few years back and wanted to berth there, I struggled to find an available berth. Returning to the south, I find I can get one in any marina in the solent with a couple offering a discount for a new contract.
Things realy are very different.
As to asking prices, there does seem to be no pattern at all other than some "unrealistic" ones and, in the area that I am looking at, a big variation. Comments made are that the market has changed with people choosing to spend it on adventures abroad instead of owning boats, the perforance cruiser market is not there anymore, etc.
What really has changed is berthing on the south coast. When I bought my last boat a few years back and wanted to berth there, I struggled to find an available berth. Returning to the south, I find I can get one in any marina in the solent with a couple offering a discount for a new contract.
Things realy are very different.
Could you elaborate on the performance cruiser comment as I have a vested interest?
That view seems at odds with the new yacht reviews I see in the sailing magazines. New designs seem to target sun, speed, short occupation periods and sunbathing cockpit space.
Garold
Well-Known Member
Or, looking at it another way...
Manufacture new boats that sail simply, break down less, and are more efficiently manufactured so that they cost less.
That's a future for the marine leisure industry if they want to appeal to the young people that I see around me.
Garold
Ps. And I don't think that they have much interest in buying the older vessels specified and designed for our generation. At any price.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The emphasis on new boats is far more on comfort, convenience and easy sailing, reflecting the fact that the market for new boats is "mature" sailors. In the past (20+ years ago) boats were sold on their ability to handle bad weather, take part in racing etc. That market has gone and those who still value those sorts of qualities are well served by the huge numbers of older boats on the market.
I have just bought a new 33' and can say that almost all the other actual or potential buyers of the same kind of boat that I have met in the last year or so have been retirees. Indeed i did a demo a couple of weeks ago for a potential buyer whose objective was to convince his wife that they could easily handle this sort of boat. It was a very breezy day - and they placed an order the same day!
Magazines tend to review the boats they get offered and the ones that make it in to print are not necessarily reflective of where the volume sales are. I can think of several recent rave reviews of boats that only sell in small numbers, but few reviews of really good volume sellers. It is also important to recognise that the UK is now a fringe market for the big builders and they leave promotion mostly to dealers while they concentrate on where the volume sales are.
pagoda
Well-Known Member
I think the comment about ability to do maintenance (or perhaps willingness to get hands dirty) with younger people is appropriate. They are in general not interested in the concept. They probably have less free time for "non-sailing" boat work (than oldies) since they are working all hours to pay humungous housing costs- rental or mortgages.
White blow moulded interiors do not discourage them one bit. Ditto high freeboard/windage, since many never go out in anything over F4.
Not much racing is done these days, compared with 20years ago, so demand for less family friendly cruiser-race oriented boats has waned.
Where things will be in 10-15 years I have no idea? A bit like the current glut of white cars. No shortage of wedding cars in the next 10 years
Keel
New Member
A quote from a dealer in the Solent following my question as to why a chunk of the asking price had been lopped off a boat I was looking at. He said he had just returned from a presentation that showed the sort of cruiser being produced today is faster than performance boats of 10 years ago.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
I would be a bit sceptical about that claim, if he really ment 2006 series performance boats
Pete7
Well-Known Member
Otter
Well-Known Member
So the whole market is shrinking and fading - except the segment in which you own a boat?
Seriously though without actual facts and trends it's all anecdotes and that's no good for gauging a market. The one thing we all agree on is that old & small plastic sailing cruisers go for nothing these days.
