Blue ensign dick'ed

[AuntyRinum]

... As it happened the wonderful image of a black tuxedo'd RYS 'steward' confiscating the Corinthian's whatever-it-is/was prompted me to rewatch 'Monte Carlo or Bust!' where Terry Thomas plays the dastardly Sir Cuthbert Ware-Armitage. Well worth it!

I'm pleased that you liked it, a true story I believe, recounted to me at the time. Your imagery sums it up beautifully.

 

[superheat6k]

...

I have just joined an Association, members of which are entitled to have/fly/wear a defaced Blue Ensign, and I am about to apply to a Club with the same rights. ...

Of greater local interest might be which Club / Association Burgee is flown 'Superior', because the rules for this are also complex and variable, as the 'Senior' may be required to become subservient when the holder is actually visiting the 'Junior'.

All if you hold two Warrants, and offend one provider who demands you de-flag, presumably you can simply waive the other Warrant in their general direction and perhaps flatulate in their general direction and remind them that their parents 'smelt of elderberries'.

 

[AuntyRinum]

Give where this thread has drifted, and reluctant to start another ensign saga, I wonder whether this is the place to ask a serious question?

I have just joined an Association, members of which are entitled to have/fly/wear a defaced Blue Ensign, and I am about to apply to a Club with the same rights. My motives are related to sailing (access to information and expertise, and rallies) and accommodation rather than the ensign.

My question is whether I might cause offence to members of the Association/Club at rallies if I forego the opportunity and continue to use my red ensign. I'm happy to fly burgees at the appropriate time but would rather not have a locker full of different ensigns. Equally, I really don't want to upset anybody, on the basis that if I join the club I should follow the rules, including any unspoken ones.

I'd particularly appreciate the views of members of clubs etc that have blue ensigns.

Neither organisation requires anything other than the money for subs to join, so the blue ensign would denote nothing more than a willingness to use some of my disposable income in a particular way. It neither implies nor precludes any particular level of sailing skills, so getting back to the OP any tendency to dick'ededness is entirely innate.

Mark

You seem to be referring to the Cruising Association. Years ago I was a very active participant in that excellent organisation.
The etiquette that troubles you is very simple. You fly any ensign, red or which ever is appropriate, but when attending a CA event you fly the CA ensign if you are entitled to.
Many CA members attending CA events will fly the red because they don't have a warrant to fly the blue. Regardless, you would normally fly the CA burgee and/or house flag irrespective of which ensign you were flying.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You seem to be referring to the Cruising Association. Years ago I was a very active participant in that excellent organisation.
The etiquette that troubles you is very simple. You fly any ensign, red or which ever is appropriate, but when attending a CA event you fly the CA ensign if you are entitled to.
Many CA members attending CA events will fly the red because they don't have a warrant to fly the blue. Regardless, you would normally fly the CA burgee and/or house flag irrespective of which ensign you were flying.

Exactly so. And I'm a member of the CA and you'll find that I'm normally flying the CA burgee. (Along with a YBW burgee and the RNSA one at the masthead.) The CA wasn't the club I was referring to when I talked about clubs 'up themselves' a bit over flags and burgees in an earlier post.

I note that one contributor to this thread is doing their trolling by confusing flag and burgee 'etiquette' with 'law' and 'rights and privileges'.

I'm not too bothered by people who can't find any enthusiasm for flag etiquette. However it's worth noting that even in our nearest in France, the authorities take a very less liberal attitude over French boats not wearing the Tricoleur. British boats that sport 'made up' ensigns to make some political point or just do it to put two fingers up to authority might not reveal their whole character by the practice but it's part of a pattern that perhaps they may be judged by. People get away with it here, but I hope they remember to change their habits if they sail very far over the horizon. The correct ensign really does matter to a lot of officials in a lot of countries. Furthermore, woe betide you if you don't put up the correct courtesy ensign as you enter their waters. Some people seem to think it's a joke. It really isn't in some places and they'll find their 'little bit of fun' expensive and causing themselves no end of grief.

 

[Mark-1]

I suggest that people ignore international law at their ,peril. Your boat (when registered and wearing a UK ensign etc) gains status and privilege

I note that one contributor to this thread is doing their trolling by confusing flag and burgee 'etiquette' with 'law' and 'rights and privileges'.

They certainly are.

 

[[163233]]

British boats that sport 'made up' ensigns to make some political point or just do it to put two fingers up to authority...

This seems to be an excellent set of reasons why someone might use their own flag and very British indeed, there can't be many things more British than poking fun at arbitrary rules.

I shall point out again that they are all "made up", and I doubt that Johnny Foreigner typically has much awareness of what defacement a blue may or may not have I rather suspect that all they care about is the union flag in the corner.

 

[dom]

Furthermore, woe betide you if you don't put up the correct courtesy ensign as you enter their waters. Some people seem to think it's a joke. It really isn't in some places and they'll find their 'little bit of fun' expensive and causing themselves no end of grief.

Not all are so up tight. A foreign vessel recently anchored in Braye (Alderney) but sadly did not possess the appropriate Alderney courtesy. However, a quick look at the Almanac suggested that the Guernsey courtesy would be appropriate, Alderney being part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey.

So said foreign vessel on his starboard spreader flew: a nice clean Union Jack on top, the French flag immediately below, then the US flag, then the German flag (!!) and finally the Guernsey courtesy.

Result: the ever-charming Harbour Master took a photo and waived two nights mooring fees!!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not all are so up tight. A foreign vessel recently anchored in Braye (Alderney) but sadly did not possess the appropriate Alderney courtesy. However, a quick look at the Almanac suggested that the Guernsey courtesy would be appropriate, Alderney being part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey.

So said foreign vessel on his starboard spreader flew: a nice clean Union Jack on top, the French flag immediately below, then the US flag, then the German flag (!!) and finally the Guernsey courtesy.

Result: the ever-charming Harbour Master took a photo and waived two nights mooring fees!!

I think I know the person you refer to and he's got a good sense of humour hasn't he.

However I wasn't referring to such local 'foreign' ports.

 

[dom]

I think I know the person you refer to and he's got a good sense of humour hasn't he.

However I wasn't referring to such local 'foreign' ports.

On a slight tangent, a couple of weeks back about twenty forumites noticed a British yacht alongside in Cherbourg wearing a long white ensign draping majestically down to the water. On its starboard spreader fluttered what looked like a club burgee and on its port spreader a French Tricolour!

A passing Douane rib, inbetween talk of Brexit, mused that perhaps "Her Majesty was on Board" And with that off he tootled.

I'm wondering if our etiquette experts have any idea what was going on here? I don't know how to post pics but happy to email to someone who does.

 

[jac]

This seems to be an excellent set of reasons why someone might use their own flag and very British indeed, there can't be many things more British than poking fun at arbitrary rules.

I shall point out again that they are all "made up", and I doubt that Johnny Foreigner typically has much awareness of what defacement a blue may or may not have I rather suspect that all they care about is the union flag in the corner.

Whilst you are right that all rules are made up, so are all laws and all languages and indeed all social conventions.

The issue is that rules, laws, social conventions have a meaning. Now you may laugh at that meaning and find it absurd or you may see it as gods own word, laid down on tablets of stone or more likely somewhere in the middle on the issue. That is your right to feel that way.

However, one needs to understand that if someone in authority takes the rules, laws or conventions seriously then they may throw the book at you.

If someone not in authority takes the rules, laws or conventions seriously then they may be pissed off at you. Your call.

 

[[163233]]

However, one needs to understand that if someone in authority takes the rules, laws or conventions seriously then they may throw the book at you.

When they make up arbitrary rules just to assert their authority, then they can expect to get the book thrown back at them.

 

[jac]

When they make up arbitrary rules just to assert their authority, then they can expect to get the book thrown back at them.

If they are made up then they deserve it.

However, there are places where throwing the book at petty officialdom can really land you in hot water. Even in this country winding up the police when they are perhaps going to let you off with a bollocking can result in a charge as the law intended.

Do you really want to spend the night in a jail in Greece or Spain or Turkey because you threw the book at port police.

You need to be really certain of your ground and the consequences if adopting this tactic.

 

[[163233]]

Do you really want to spend the night in a jail in Greece or Spain or Turkey because you threw the book at port police.

You think that the Greek port police maintain a little book of all the various colours and defacements and descriptions of the burgees and warrants required to wear them?

 

[westhinder]

Could someone please mention this thread to Kate Fox? It deserves inclusion in the next revision of her book Watching the English

 

[Angele]

It was at the Boat Show that one took my money and the other my details - I didn't think to ask either about flag etiquette, but both offer attractive sailing related activities and reasonably priced accommodation in London.

You seem to be referring to the Cruising Association.

For the Club, my guess was the Little Ship Club.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Could someone please mention this thread to Kate Fox? It deserves inclusion in the next revision of her book Watching the English

The whole thread is delightful, it makes you proud to be English. The deep passion; the dissection of the minutiae of the rules about which matching burgee goes with which flag at the stern; and for good measure the re-fighting of long ago conflicts between two shades of blue in the armed services.

The reaction to those of us who fly the blue, red with extra bits, Vatican navy, made up or any other flag that we shouldn't is utterly English and is to be strongly commended. To be born English is to have won life's lottery, we're safe and protected in every aspect of our lives largely because we are a nation of rule keepers.

The stern words by retired servicemen perhaps echo their fondness for a professional world in which rules-were-rules and were there for a damned good reason. Good on em I say and long may their views be heard with affectionate respect.

 

[Quandary]

Coming up to 300 posts (keep going lads) and over 20,000 views so time for some scores

Entertainment 6.5 (well, I read it all)
Originality 2.5 (has been debated a few times in the past with similar argument, but not to match this)
Humour 3 (has been some nice wind ups but with such a great subject surely there should have been more)
Persistence 9 (would have been 10 if all the protagonists had stuck at it)
Thread drift 8.5 (no one has even mentioned the SNP, would have been 10 if the first post had been about flegs, the Spitfire was an interesting diversion )
Tolerance 8 (well done lads, nobody lost the bap)
Usefulness ? ( not giving a toss myself disqualifies me from scoring this, but despite this it was a hoot)

forgot to score - Inclusivity. only 3 (because the subject did not seem to appeal at all across gender or race.)

Congratulations, not since the Smiths stopped pushing Rocna anchors have we had anything like it, a credit to the nation.

 

[Sandyman]

Coming up to 300 posts (keep going lads) and over 20,000 views so time for some scores

Entertainment 6.5 (well, I read it all)
Originality 2.5 (has been debated a few times in the past with similar argument, but not to match this)
Humour 3 (has been some nice wind ups but with such a great subject surely there should have been more)
Persistence 9 (would have been 10 if all the protagonists had stuck at it)
Thread drift 8.5 (no one has even mentioned the SNP, would have been 10 if the first post had been about flegs, the Spitfire was an interesting diversion )
Tolerance 8 (well done lads, nobody lost the bap)
Usefulness ? ( not giving a toss myself disqualifies me from scoring this, but despite this it was a hoot)

Congratulations, not since the Smiths stopped pushing Rocna anchors have we had anything like it, a credit to the nation.

Ha ha excellent post. Made I laugh

 

[LadyInBed]

I've just read a bit more & it seems I need a Seaman Discharge Book.....?

What you do in the privacy of your cabin . . . . .:excitement:
There are some things that you just can't resist misreading :redface-new:

 

[Colvic Watson]

Coming up to 300 posts (keep going lads) and over 20,000 views so time for some scores

Entertainment 6.5 (well, I read it all)
Originality 2.5 (has been debated a few times in the past with similar argument, but not to match this)
Humour 3 (has been some nice wind ups but with such a great subject surely there should have been more)
Persistence 9 (would have been 10 if all the protagonists had stuck at it)
Thread drift 8.5 (no one has even mentioned the SNP, would have been 10 if the first post had been about flegs, the Spitfire was an interesting diversion )
Tolerance 8 (well done lads, nobody lost the bap)
Usefulness ? ( not giving a toss myself disqualifies me from scoring this, but despite this it was a hoot)

forgot to score - Inclusivity. only 3 (because the subject did not seem to appeal at all across gender or race.)

Congratulations, not since the Smiths stopped pushing Rocna anchors have we had anything like it, a credit to the nation.