jac
Well-known member
He would have had an admiralty commission.
Blue ensign dick'ed
- Thread starter oldbilbo
- Start date
He would have had an admiralty commission.
AuntyRinum
Well-known member
To you perhaps, but then your responses on this thread have been completely uninformative.
Colvic Watson
Well-known member
That is fascinating, so it's OK to fly two different flags? That opens up a world of possibilities that I'd not previously considered - talk to me eBay, what have you got - time to buy a red perhaps? I just can't countenance a white, it seems wrong somehow, perhaps I have a vestige of flag morality after all?
AuntyRinum
Well-known member
Of course it is. Have you never been to Cowes Week and seen all of the different house flags?
dombuckley
Well-known member
There you go - photo of Victory at sea. Must have been a different day though, cos she's wearing different flags. And it looks too windy to be Trafalgar.
jac
Well-known member
You can fly what you like.
It's only when you start flying flags that signify something that you have no right to signify that people get upset.
Similarly you could call yourself Lord Watson and no-one would mind too much. But if you claimed to be Dr Watson then Sherlock may be cross, others who had legitimately got PhDs may get hacked off. If you waltzed into a hospital, claimed to be a top gynaecologist and started taking pictures or womens undercarriage you would very soon be arrested.
It's the same with ensigns. If you are not paying the fees for a club/ organisation, why should you be allowed to wear the ensign of that club?
Bru
Well-known member
The red ensign was the correct ensign for English and later British merchant vessels from the time of Charles II if not earlier
It was also the principal ensign of the Royal Navy - ships under independent command as well as those under the command of an Admiral of the Red would wear the red ensign. A ship sailing under the orders of an Admiral of the White would wear a white ensign, one under the orders of an Admiral of the Blue, would wear a blue ensign
Nelson ordered that all ships at Trafalgar should wear a white ensign (as previously mentioned he was, at the time, a Vice-Admiral of the White) to avoid confusion in battle but contrary to popular myth the Royal Navy continued to use all three ensigns until 1864
In 1864 it was decided that all Royal Navy ships would wear the white ensign. The red ensign continued to be the ensign of British merchant vessels and the blue ensign was allocated to ships commanded by an officer of the Royal Naval Reserve and defaced blue (with various badges) for ships on government service
Later Royal Warrants expanded the use of the blue ensign, with appropriate badge, to yacht clubs, various colonial institutions and so on
There endeth the history lesson (yeah, I find this sort of thing fascinating. Apologies to those who don't)
PS. Thus, historically, the Red Ensign is actually the senior flag so that's one in the eye for all those holders of warrants to fly a blue or white
It was also the principal ensign of the Royal Navy - ships under independent command as well as those under the command of an Admiral of the Red would wear the red ensign. A ship sailing under the orders of an Admiral of the White would wear a white ensign, one under the orders of an Admiral of the Blue, would wear a blue ensign
Nelson ordered that all ships at Trafalgar should wear a white ensign (as previously mentioned he was, at the time, a Vice-Admiral of the White) to avoid confusion in battle but contrary to popular myth the Royal Navy continued to use all three ensigns until 1864
In 1864 it was decided that all Royal Navy ships would wear the white ensign. The red ensign continued to be the ensign of British merchant vessels and the blue ensign was allocated to ships commanded by an officer of the Royal Naval Reserve and defaced blue (with various badges) for ships on government service
Later Royal Warrants expanded the use of the blue ensign, with appropriate badge, to yacht clubs, various colonial institutions and so on
There endeth the history lesson (yeah, I find this sort of thing fascinating. Apologies to those who don't)
PS. Thus, historically, the Red Ensign is actually the senior flag so that's one in the eye for all those holders of warrants to fly a blue or white
dom
Well-known member
It may not matter, but it's fascinating and intriguing in equal measure.
The history, freedoms and benefits of open trade owe so much to the British navy and we are all indebted to them for this. I would personally show the deepest of respect to the military folk who help(ed) make all of tnis possible, but to the wearers of ensigns on the basis of some royal warrant - well I was born to a differnt class.
But I digress, your illumination and detail is enchanting :encouragement:
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jac
Well-known member
I don't think that anyone with a blue ensign does expect any respect ( at least no more than you would give any other random person you met) This seems to be some totally imagined issue.
To me, all that a blue ( or defaced red) signifies is that you are the member of a particular club. It doesn't make you better or worse ( or even different) to anyone else.
the issue that I have though is someone who hasn't paid to be in that club, then pretending to be in it. Whether that's wearing an MCC tie, claiming to be a military veteran or flying an ensign other than the red.
Incidentally. if you're interested in the impact of Navies on free trade then have a look at the trilogy of books by Peter Padfield - "Naval Supremacy and the opening of the Western Mind" being the most memorable. He may labour the point a little but a fascinating read and a fairly compelling argument IMHO.
Robin
Well-known member
That sums up my thinking too. We reserved our YC defaced blue for when in company with other members or in our home YC marina berth. otherwise the old worn thin red came out, especially offshore and 'foreign' because it flew better without the club insignia add-on in the fly weighing it down and because it saved wearing out the YC blue one which was much more expensive to replace. We now have a stars and stripes although we could have chosen a variation of that like the southern states confederate one or power squadron one if we were members which we ain't. Sadly flying a British blue or red is not an option, defaced or not but we do sport Union Flag stickers discreetly on the coachroof sides along with our Parkstone YC burgee stickers.
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Colvic Watson
Well-known member
But if you were an actual top gynaecologist that would be OK?
Truly the thread gives and gives, now the analogy is that flying a blue ensign is equated to gross deception and sexual perversion. Which leaves me with a terrible quandary, when I periodically fly the blue flag will other boating folk think to themselves "there goes a top gynaecologist" or are they more likely to think "pah, another one of those fake gynaecologists" hurriedly cross their legs and tack away from my plastic tub.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
At the moment the phrase that comes to mind regarding this thread is,
"Don't feed trolls".
"Don't feed trolls".
Quandary
Well-known member
Why not? if it wasn't for the good Doctor W do you think you would have harvested anything like 330 posts or over 2000 reads, it has been the 'yachting' thread of the year by a mile without ever descending anywhere near turgidity you get in the lounge where the real trolls live.
I for one am looking forward to a few giggles yet.
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I thought we'd established that he's not a doctor?
They really are confusing these blue flags!
I've changed my mind and agree with jac that only top gynaecologists should be allowed to wear the defaced blue.
jac
Well-known member
No the analogy is that by flying a flag that you're not entitled to fly is equated to deception.
When you do fly a blue all that people will think is - "AH - he's member of XXX."
If you're being a Dick'ed then the club you are pretending to be in will probably be miffed.
If others come up to you and start asking friendly questions about what you think of being in XXX then you either have the choice of coming clean and saying you're not - which then questions your motives for pretending in the first place or alternatively you go all Walter Mitty and say it's ok but don't get trapped by Nigel at the bar with his stories of expensive Volvo repairs in Cherbourg.
I get that some people have a desperate need to pretend to be something they are not. Renting flash cars to turn up at social events, inventing more exciting back stories to their lives, elaborating on their careers.
Personally that's not me, I prefer to keep it straightforward otherwise you can never remember what lie you've told who. Before you know where you are the person you told about your First from Cambridge also thinks you are so brave for winning the VC in an operation you're not allowed to talk about except in Hereford or with your mate the Archbishop of York.
jac
Well-known member
Churchill once said "Never in the field of Internet bollocks, has so much energy been wasted by so many contributors for such little gain"
Although he may not have and I may have paraphrased.
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You do have a point there, it seems reasonable that clubs should be allowed to control who flies their flag.
I'm happy for them to fly their made up flags, where they are happy to see my big purple one swinging in the wind.
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
As we are talking gynaecologists I am reminded of a yacht club incident when I used to race as crew on boat.
We arrived after a short port to port coastal race and retired to the bar for drinks, the club had been hosting a series of dinghy races of some standing and merit that weekend also. Anyway during the course of the evening we were besieged, he had done the rounds by this time, by an old fart that had won some silverware. Eventually the conversation moved away from any nautical basis and the inevitable question of "what do you do" cropped up. There came the usual boring answers of salesman, MD and engineer etc until it came to my turn to give my equally nondescript answer. Now at this point I will add that I was the only Englishman and very English at that on an all Welsh boat in an equally proud Welsh club so I was well used to having the piss taken. Before I could utter a word I became a top gynaecologist with a Harley St practice! Without batting an eyelid the now worse for wear old fart began to detail his wife's problems in this area of my new found expertise and invited me to nip out to the cottage for a quick consultation and inspection of the "Old girl". This caused much merriment to the now assembled crowd and crew and it was not without some difficulty that I was able to decline his request finally resorting to professionalism and the need for referral etc. The encounter became legendary and a firm cockpit favourite for the crew and skipper on many subsequent trips.
We arrived after a short port to port coastal race and retired to the bar for drinks, the club had been hosting a series of dinghy races of some standing and merit that weekend also. Anyway during the course of the evening we were besieged, he had done the rounds by this time, by an old fart that had won some silverware. Eventually the conversation moved away from any nautical basis and the inevitable question of "what do you do" cropped up. There came the usual boring answers of salesman, MD and engineer etc until it came to my turn to give my equally nondescript answer. Now at this point I will add that I was the only Englishman and very English at that on an all Welsh boat in an equally proud Welsh club so I was well used to having the piss taken. Before I could utter a word I became a top gynaecologist with a Harley St practice! Without batting an eyelid the now worse for wear old fart began to detail his wife's problems in this area of my new found expertise and invited me to nip out to the cottage for a quick consultation and inspection of the "Old girl". This caused much merriment to the now assembled crowd and crew and it was not without some difficulty that I was able to decline his request finally resorting to professionalism and the need for referral etc. The encounter became legendary and a firm cockpit favourite for the crew and skipper on many subsequent trips.
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
You're only saying that so you can protest when someone attempts to pick the low hanging plumbs of your etiquette.
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