Beta 14 Starter Motor won't start

[DangerousPirate]

I am not sailing at the moment, but I regularly start the engine at least every few weeks as part of maintenance check ups. Been a while that I did so since last time, about 1,5 months, and shockingly it won't start! The panel shows "low battery" and there is no buzz for low oil pressure to be heard, the engine won't start, and I can't even hear the starter engine trying, so it's definitely an electric fault.

The starter battery is fully charged at 12,7 (checked with multimeter when disconnected from everything), the battery alternator switch is enabled for both domestic and starter battery (although I tried starter battery only as well). When I put the key in half position, I can see the lights come up sometimes, other times they are very "weak" looking and fade away or don't show, a little play with the key will bring them back to life.
Checking the cable, it looked good to me, no hard bents any where, the crimps looked fine. Although the battery terminal clamp, which the cable was connected to, literally crumbled apart when I tried to tighten the nut again. But the problem persists, even if I put the crimp directly on the battery terminal. Sometimes it sparks, so there is electricity flowing. Ordered a new pack of terminals but I don't think this is where the issue lays.

I am really clueless what else I could be looking for.

I would have liked to check on the starter motor itself, but not exactly sure what that looks like or where exactly it's located (any help here would be appreciated). I had a look at the manual on the website, but that didn't help so much with identifying the part.

Logically thinking, since nothing happened since the last time I ran it, there must be some fault at some of the connection points (probably rust or come loose) but I couldn't find anything before it became dark.

Am I on the right track here, or do you think it's something completely different?

 

[Pye_End]

From experience, well worth cleaning the -ve connection onto the engine block.

The voltage on the panel - do you know where that is connected to?. If you have a poor connection or fault then you need to work your way along the system from the battery till you get a low voltage reading - eg the other side of a switch, or at the engine block. Sometimes a poor connection can still give you a (confusingly) decent voltage when there is no load on it, but since you have a panel 'low battery' then this doesn't sound to be the case, so finding a high resistance should be more straight forward.

 

[VicS]

The starter motor and solenoid are on the port side below the heat exchanger. ( see attached diagram)

Your problem does sound like a bad connection somewhere and the behavior when you play with the key would make me look at/ test the key switch to begin with.

 

[William_H]

My guess is that the battery is bad. A check of volts with multimeter when disconnected is not a sure test of usefulness. Try monitoring the voltage of the battery when you turn power on and especially when you try to start the engine. The volts will normally dive to 10 volts when cranking then recover to around 12v when you stop cranking. (and rise to 14v when engine starts and alternator charges)
If volts at battery remain at 12v+ when you turn on then try to crank then yes you have a hole in the electrical circuit. Check volts down stream from battery. ol'will

 

[DangerousPirate]

From experience, well worth cleaning the -ve connection onto the engine block.

The voltage on the panel - do you know where that is connected to?. If you have a poor connection or fault then you need to work your way along the system from the battery till you get a low voltage reading - eg the other side of a switch, or at the engine block. Sometimes a poor connection can still give you a (confusingly) decent voltage when there is no load on it, but since you have a panel 'low battery' then this doesn't sound to be the case, so finding a high resistance should be more straight forward.

The panel is connected directly to the key block in the cockpit, from there it goes through the keyblock to the main cable that runs to the batteries, but I don't know exactly as it's a very complicated cableing and I haven't ripped it all out (yet). I can clean the negative cable and try to see if that helps. Good idea.

The starter motor and solenoid are on the port side below the heat exchanger. ( see attached diagram)

Your problem does sound like a bad connection somewhere and the behavior when you play with the key would make me look at/ test the key switch to begin with.

View attachment 175889

Lifesaver. Thank you. Of course, it's the most inaccessible place on the whole engine for me, but hey. At least I know now where it's located.

My guess is that the battery is bad. A check of volts with multimeter when disconnected is not a sure test of usefulness. Try monitoring the voltage of the battery when you turn power on and especially when you try to start the engine. The volts will normally dive to 10 volts when cranking then recover to around 12v when you stop cranking. (and rise to 14v when engine starts and alternator charges)
If volts at battery remain at 12v+ when you turn on then try to crank then yes you have a hole in the electrical circuit. Check volts down stream from battery. ol'will

I don't think the battery is dead. First of all, I checked it for over 30 minutes and it didn't drop in voltage after I disconnected it from everything. But I am most confident about this statement, because I had dead batteries before, and when the battery is dead, the starter motor at least tries and you can hear it. At the very lowest, it clicks a little without the power to turn anything at all. Unless it's so deadly dead, that you wouldn't even get a read from it in the first place, but that is not the answer.

Besides, whenever I install something 12v (like a lamp or whatever) I test it on the engine battery to see if it works before I lay any cables. And I tested it with a light just now, and it works. The reading of the batter right now is 12.7 still btw. It's been disconnected for hours now.

 

[Refueler]

From experience, well worth cleaning the -ve connection onto the engine block.

So common that engine ground ... and the connections to starter motor.

My Perkins 4-107 may not be same engine - but if I leave the engine for long period - I usually have to 'thump' the starter motor to get it to spin up again .. the shaft and bendix basically stick ... motor fails to turn ... give it a thump to get it to 'unstick' and away she goes .... sometimes I have to put a big spanner on the crankshaft pulley and just rock the motor shaft as well ...

There's really nothing I can do to prevent this unless I check start regularly while laid up - but then I don't like to start engine when laid up out of water and having run Anti-freeze through system. So I live with this.

 

[Pye_End]

The panel is connected directly to the key block in the cockpit, from there it goes through the keyblock to the main cable that runs to the batteries, but I don't know exactly as it's a very complicated cabling and I haven't ripped it all out (yet). I can clean the negative cable and try to see if that helps. Good idea.

Lifesaver. Thank you. Of course, it's the most inaccessible place on the whole engine for me, but hey. At least I know now where it's located.

I don't think the battery is dead. First of all, I checked it for over 30 minutes and it didn't drop in voltage after I disconnected it from everything. But I am most confident about this statement, because I had dead batteries before, and when the battery is dead, the starter motor at least tries and you can hear it. At the very lowest, it clicks a little without the power to turn anything at all. Unless it's so deadly dead, that you wouldn't even get a read from it in the first place, but that is not the answer.

Besides, whenever I install something 12v (like a lamp or whatever) I test it on the engine battery to see if it works before I lay any cables. And I tested it with a light just now, and it works. The reading of the batter right now is 12.7 still btw. It's been disconnected for hours now.

Manual is here if this is of help - OM 221 20031 HE REV37 0224

There is a wiring diagram which will help in assessing voltage at key switch, and a troubleshooting guide.

As William alludes to, a battery disconnected voltage can hide issues that are evident once you put a load on them (just like wires and connectors). Maybe unlikely source of your problem since you have also put the house batteries, but not always to be taken for granted. I have lost both banks before on the same passage, which was really confusing at the time especially as resting voltages were ok.

 

[DangerousPirate]

So common that engine ground ... and the connections to starter motor.

My Perkins 4-107 may not be same engine - but if I leave the engine for long period - I usually have to 'thump' the starter motor to get it to spin up again .. the shaft and bendix basically stick ... motor fails to turn ... give it a thump to get it to 'unstick' and away she goes .... sometimes I have to put a big spanner on the crankshaft pulley and just rock the motor shaft as well ...

There's really nothing I can do to prevent this unless I check start regularly while laid up - but then I don't like to start engine when laid up out of water and having run Anti-freeze through system. So I live with this.

What do you mean with thump the engine? Bang it with the spanner? In that situation, do you hear the starter motor try to spin or is it dead silent?

 

[Refueler]

What do you mean with thump the engine? Bang it with the spanner? In that situation, do you hear the starter motor try to spin or is it dead silent?

Thump the engine ??? I said the STARTER MOTOR ....

Its not uncommon for starter motors to basically stick when not used for significant period and a bang with a spanner can sometimes help it 'unstick' ...

When Starter motors are 'stuck' - they don't spin up - you usually hear the solenoid click - but nothing happens ...

 

[DangerousPirate]

Thump the engine ??? I said the STARTER MOTOR ....

Its not uncommon for starter motors to basically stick when not used for significant period and a bang with a spanner can sometimes help it 'unstick' ...

When Starter motors are 'stuck' - they don't spin up - you usually hear the solenoid click - but nothing happens ...

Sorry. I mistyped but understood. But I don't hear the solenoid click either. I will try tomorrow when I am back at it.

Is there a way to hotwire the starter and connect it directly to power? Should be. That way I can rule out that the starter motor isn't dead and make sure it's a wiring problem. Maybe corrosion.

 

[VicS]

So common that engine ground ... and the connections to starter motor.

My Perkins 4-107 may not be same engine - but if I leave the engine for long period - I usually have to 'thump' the starter motor to get it to spin up again .. the shaft and bendix basically stick ... motor fails to turn ... give it a thump to get it to 'unstick' and away she goes .... sometimes I have to put a big spanner on the crankshaft pulley and just rock the motor shaft as well ...

There's really nothing I can do to prevent this unless I check start regularly while laid up - but then I don't like to start engine when laid up out of water and having run Anti-freeze through system. So I live with this.

Thump the engine ??? I said the STARTER MOTOR ....

Its not uncommon for starter motors to basically stick when not used for significant period and a bang with a spanner can sometimes help it 'unstick' ...

When Starter motors are 'stuck' - they don't spin up - you usually hear the solenoid click - but nothing happens ...

The Op's Beta will have a pre-engage type of starter , not the inertia type with a Bendix mechanism which you describe. Slightly different considerations therefore.

What most people don't realise is that a pre-engage starter should be lubricated at the points shown in the attached diagram. ( without a clutch to wear and produce dust there is is not the objection to lightly lubricating an inertia type either).

 

[VicS]

Sorry. I mistyped but understood. But I don't hear the solenoid click either. I will try tomorrow when I am back at it.

Is there a way to hotwire the starter and connect it directly to power? Should be. That way I can rule out that the starter motor isn't dead and make sure it's a wiring problem. Maybe corrosion.

Two things you could try with caution ( the earth must be good of course, or nothing much will happen)

1. Try shorting together the two large terminals on the solenoid. The starter should spin although it may not engage with the engine Take care because the current flow will be large and sparking will occur as you make/ break the connection.

2. Make a connection between the small terminal on the solenoid and battery positive ( use the solenoid terminal with battery positive connected). The motor should spin, engage and crank the engine. Take care of rotating engine parts ( ie belt and pulleys ) as the engine might start. Again be aware that the solenoid itself draws an appreciable current.

Make sure you know how to operate the emergency stop lever locally before you start.

Poor access will be your enemy .

 

[DangerousPirate]

Two things you could try with caution ( the earth must be good of course, or nothing much will happen)

1. Try shorting together the two large terminals on the solenoid. The starter should spin although it may not engage with the engine Take care because the current flow will be large and sparking will occur as you make/ break the connection.

2. Make a connection between the small terminal on the solenoid and battery positive ( use the solenoid terminal with battery positive connected). The motor should spin, engage and crank the engine. Take care of rotating engine parts ( ie belt and pulleys ) as the engine might start. Again be aware that the solenoid itself draws an appreciable current.

Make sure you know how to operate the emergency stop lever locally before you start.

Poor access will be your enemy .

Thank you, poor access on the port side is an issue. But I think I will be able to work around it. I don't even need to start the engine, as I only want to test the starter to see if it works. If yes, then I can look for the problem in the cableing. Then it HAS to be a connection error, faulty cable, fuse or something of that sort.

If it doesn't work when I hotwire it, then it is possible that the cables were all fine.

 

[VicS]

Thank you, poor access on the port side is an issue. But I think I will be able to work around it. I don't even need to start the engine, as I only want to test the starter to see if it works. If yes, then I can look for the problem in the cableing. Then it HAS to be a connection error, faulty cable, fuse or something of that sort.

If it doesn't work when I shorten it, then it is possible that the cables were all fine.

Id not expect it to fail to respond to either of my suggestions unless in the first the starter motor is faulty or the main battery connections are bad or in the second the solenoid is faulty.
Be careful... the engine might start unexpectedly

Assuming that the above are OK you need to check that you have a good power supply to the engine control panel. ( Brown/ white wire on terminal 30 of the key switch). There's a 40 amp a fuse in this supply located near the starter motor. ( don't be duped by an apparently good voltage reading on a digital multimeter). Then check that the key switch is giving a good output to the white/red wire on terminal 17 when the key is turned to the start position.
While you are there check the supply to the glow plugs (red wire on terminal 19) when key is in the preheating position ( also check at the glow plugs )

My feeling is that somewhere there is a bad connection in the supply to the panel, or the key switch is bad. Based on what you said earlier I suspect the key switch.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Id not expect it to fail to respond to either of my suggestions unless in the first the starter motor is faulty or the main battery connections are bad or in the second the solenoid is faulty.
Be careful... the engine might start unexpectedly

Assuming that the above are OK you need to check that you have a good power supply to the engine control panel. ( Brown/ white wire on terminal 30 of the key switch). There's a 40 amp a fuse in this supply located near the starter motor. ( don't be duped by an apparently good voltage reading on a digital multimeter). Then check that the key switch is giving a good output to the white/red wire on terminal 17 when the key is turned to the start position.
While you are there check the supply to the glow plugs (red wire on terminal 19) when key is in the preheating position ( also check at the glow plugs )

My feeling is that somewhere there is a bad connection in the supply to the panel, or the key switch is bad. Based on what you said earlier I suspect the key switch.

The key switch. Hm. I haven't thought of that yet. At least that's easy access. I will reference this thread once I am back down. Thanks for the help so far. I hope it's a simple fix. I actually planned to potter out and get a lift tackle the paintjob instead of doing electrics/motor.

 

[VicS]

The key switch. Hm. I haven't thought of that yet. At least that's easy access. I will reference this thread once I am back down. Thanks for the help so far. I hope it's a simple fix. I actually planned to potter out and get a lift tackle the paintjob instead of doing electrics/motor.

In post #3 I suggested looking at the key switch ,
" the behavior when you play with the key would make me look at/ test the key switch to begin with "

I guess you were distracted by the picture.

 

[Refueler]

"Be careful... the engine might start unexpectedly"

That is one of the most simple true statements ever when it comes to a diesel engine .... I've seen an engine fire when a guy turned a shaft ... ok it didn't start .. but it 'kicked' !

 

[webcraft]

Had a similar thing recently.

There was a bad low voltage connection from the live to the fuel gauge which seemed to be involved, so remade that. Fuel gauge now worked reliably, but did not seem to fix the issue.

Loosened , examined and retightened the engine earth connection onto the block. It looked fine.

Cover was partially off the multiplug from the ignition. Pulled it, used magic spray and remade it.

No more issues, but not sure exactly what the problem was. All simple things to do though.

Re. diesels accidentally starting - could not pull the impeller recently so followed some online advice to 'bump' the engine. It started and sprayed water everywhere in the two seconds it took me to stop it.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Cover was partially off the multiplug from the ignition. Pulled it, used magic spray and remade it.

IIRC correctly mine is similar. Maybe I should use magic spray too hopefully that's it.

And in the meantime I can check the key switch as pointed out earlier.

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

I was going to offer to come and have a look, but NI is a bit far from Dorset...

I recently had to replace the starter motor on my Beta 20 when the key switch stuck and it melted!

1. Check the key switch feed (thin wire on the solanode). Pull it off and use a multi meter to test it goes to +12v ish (black wire on multi meter to batt -ve.) When you turn the key.

2. Repeat above but multi meter -ve to engine body. To check engine grounding is OK.

3. Use multi meter to check that the big fat +ve wire in the solinode is showing +12v.

4. Get a long bit of wire fit a crimp on it. Push the crimp onto the solonide terminal (see 1). Make sure the wire is clear of the alternator and touch it on the batt +ve.

Assuming the battery is OK, that will prove that the keyswich, solinode, starter motor are ok.

If you get a click, but no starter motor then it's the starter motor.

The solinode and starter motor come as one part. £300 from Beta/£110 on ebay.

PM me if you want to talk this through...