Belgium and Red

[westhinder]

i dont understand why anyone would want to go to Belgium ??

Do not even try to understand. it is overcrowded as it is. There is nothing happening, no restaurants, no pubs. Leave it to the natives and a few intrepid adventurers.

 

[dgadee]

"The government response to the summer 2020 consultation also announced that from no later than June this year private pleasure craft in Northern Ireland will have to use white diesel to propel their craft. This will achieve consistency with the 2019 judgment by the Court of Justice of the European Union and ensure the UK meets its international obligations under the terms of the Northern Ireland Protocol to the Withdrawal Agreement. "

Once again, the Directive relates to the internal market. Just as I in NI can buy chandlery from the UK without paying extra VAT, I can buy red diesel up the Clyde. Unlike the output of the legislative draftsman in the UK, Directives are usually easy to read. This one certainly is: EUR-Lex - 31995L0060 - EN - EUR-Lex

 

[westhinder]

As above Westvleteren https://www.trappistwestvleteren.be/nl/age-gate?_target_path=/nl
and St. Bernardus Home | St.Bernardus (sintbernardus.be)

It is fairly difficult to get the Westvleteren, there are shops in Brussels that sell it but at a huge premium, today's sale of beer ended early as it sold out very quickly, they have a calendar of when they sell the beer and when you can then collect it, they are now doing a home delivery in Belgium but at €70 plus per 12 bottles I'm not going to avail myself of the service. I have tasted the beer and it is very nice but the St. Bernardus tastes almost identical and is a fraction of the cost plus it is available in the local corner store here, my favourite Belgian beer is Kasteel Donker a sweetish dark beer at 12%abv Kasteel Donker - Kasteel Brouwerij Vanhonsebrouck

St Bernardus used to brew for the abbey of Westvleteren, but they are no longer allowed to sell their beer as ‘Trappist’ since the order decided only beer brewed within the walls of the abbey can be called Trappist. It is still the same recipe though and connoisseurs have to admit they cannot distinguish the two.
If you insist on buying the authentic Westvleteren, you can do so at ‘De Vrede’, the shop across the abbey. You are allowed 12 bottles per person.
‘it is a very nice excursion from Oostende or Nieuwpoort, provided you have your own transport. By bus it must take hours.

 

[DJE]

Once again, the Directive relates to the internal market. Just as I in NI can buy chandlery from the UK without paying extra VAT, I can buy red diesel up the Clyde. Unlike the output of the legislative draftsman in the UK, Directives are usually easy to read. This one certainly is: EUR-Lex - 31995L0060 - EN - EUR-Lex

That reads to me as a requirement for member states to mark fuel and another for them to prohibit the use of that marked fuel for certain purposes. If the fuel is marked by a non-member state it isn't clear what is required.

 

[dgadee]

That reads to me as a requirement for member states to mark fuel and another for them to prohibit the use of that marked fuel for certain purposes. If the fuel is marked by a non-member state it isn't clear what is required.

The legal basis is harmonization of the internal market. We (except NI) are not in the internal market.

 

[TernVI]

That reads to me as a requirement for member states to mark fuel and another for them to prohibit the use of that marked fuel for certain purposes. If the fuel is marked by a non-member state it isn't clear what is required.

In the UK it's an offence to have red diesel in your car's tank.
It's not a defence to say you filled up in some other country.

 

[DJE]

In the UK it's an offence to have red diesel in your car's tank.
It's not a defence to say you filled up in some other country.

Are you sure? I think it's a bit more subtle than just a colour.
HMRC Site
3.5 Testing for marked fuel from outside the UK
HMRC will take action against those responsible for the presence of marked oils containing any UK or EU chemical marker. These include:

• Coumarin – a UK marker
• Quinizarin – a UK marker
• the ‘Euromarker’ – Solvent Yellow 124, a marker used in the UK and the EU

 

[dgadee]

In the UK it's an offence to have red diesel in your car's tank.
It's not a defence to say you filled up in some other country.

Red is the UK colour for rebated fuel (green in Ireland). The presumption would be that if you have red fuel in your car then it was rebated fuel and filled in the UK. I suppose you could appeal against seizure of your car if have sufficient evidence that it was not rebated fuel. Now that the UK is not in the customs union I am unsure what the legal basis of enforcement against green fuel in your tank would be (except in NI which remains a part of the customs union).

 

[DJE]

I thought the red dye was to alert the Excise man and he would then test for the exact chemical marker.

 

[awol]

It's been stated many times - it is NOT the tax status that matters, it is whether the fuel is marked . If you were daft enough to add dye to white diesel yourself, you would be in breach.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There is an international
Protocol that the EU has signed upto. It allows bunkered fuels to be brought into ports and not be subject to duty. The protocol was used by the owners of super yachts who had been fined in Germany. There was an article on this and a comment which stated that officials were ignorant of the law and had acted illegally. The case brought by the owners was exactly because of the marker being in the fuel. They had full traceability of fuel purchases and samples. That’s my recollection. I’ll see what I can dig up.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Once again, the Directive relates to the internal market. Just as I in NI can buy chandlery from the UK without paying extra VAT, I can buy red diesel up the Clyde. Unlike the output of the legislative draftsman in the UK, Directives are usually easy to read. This one certainly is: EUR-Lex - 31995L0060 - EN - EUR-Lex

I I understand (sic) it, EU directives are a minimum. If a member state wishes to go further - as the UK frequently did - it can add more when it implements the directive.

 

[Black Sheep]

What matters is what the Belgian (or Dutch or French) local laws are for private boats.
But we're drawing an analogy with the situation with red diesel in cars, so here is the relevant UK legislation, from the Finance Act 1996:

24A Penalties for misuse of marked oil.

(1) Marked oil shall not be used as fuel for a road vehicle.

(2) For the purposes of this section marked oil is any hydrocarbon oil in which a marker is present which is for the time being designated by regulations made by the Commissioners under subsection (3) below.

(3) The Commissioners may for the purposes of this section designate any marker which appears to them to be used for the purposes of the law of any place (whether within or outside the United Kingdom) for identifying hydrocarbon oil that is not to be used as fuel for road vehicles, or for road vehicles of a particular description.

If that were the Belgian wording for boats, then I would interpret that as meaning that Red Diesel is outlawed in fuel tanks of private vessels coming from the UK.

The only straws that I can see to grasp are:
1) the Belgian regs might be totally different, or
2) BlowingOldBoots' thought that there may be a treaty that exempts ships' bunkers.

 

[Sandy]

The French flare rule doesn't apply to visitors.

It is a bit early for the pantomime season.

Boating abroad: what you need to know - Yachting Monthly

2. There have been lots of rumours over the years regarding boaters being fined in France including rumours relating to various items of equipment, such as out of date flares. It is unusual but not unknown for the French authorities to decide to apply their national legislation to a UK flagged visiting boat. Details of what you would be expected to have are available here.
It is important to note that French legislation requires equipment to be serviced and in date in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.

Personally, I prefer not to argue with people carrying guns.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There is an international
Protocol that the EU has signed upto. It allows bunkered fuels to be brought into ports and not be subject to duty. The protocol was used by the owners of super yachts who had been fined in Germany. There was an article on this and a comment which stated that officials were ignorant of the law and had acted illegally. The case brought by the owners was exactly because of the marker being in the fuel. They had full traceability of fuel purchases and samples. That’s my recollection. I’ll see what I can dig up.

The article was in the Yachting Monthly Germany fines red diesel yachtsmen - Yachting Monthly

“In my opinion, what happened is illegal,” said Silvio Rossi, president of the fuel trading and yacht agent company Rossmare International in Savona, Italy. “The biggest mistake they [customs officers] make is they confuse supply and consumption.”

Rossi cited Article 4 of the Convention of Istanbul, a continent-wide agreement that says that fuel in the normal tanks as a means of transport shall be admitted into the European Union without payment of import duties and taxes.

The Istanbul Convention referred to in the article ATA Carnet - Wikipedia

Article 4 refers to this Customs Convention on Containers

The Convention allows for shipping containers to be brought from a ratifying state into a ratifying state duty- and tax-free for a period of three months.

Which refers to this Customs Convention on the Temporary Importation for Private Use of Aircraft and Pleasure Boats

The Customs Convention on the Temporary Importation for Private Use of Aircraft and Pleasure Boats is a 1956 United Nations multilateral treaty. In states that adhere to the Convention, it allows individuals that are temporarily visiting a country—such as tourists—to import an aircraft or pleasure boat to the country duty free so long as the aircraft or boat will be used exclusively for private use.

I really don't know how this is to be applied to leisure yachts but it appears to have been tested in court, maybe since 2012 laws have changed. It does appear to be an irregular and unreasonable burden.

 

[RivalRedwing]

and now we can continue to use red diesel in the UK...

RYA delighted at Government decision on tax reform of red diesel | News | News & Events | RYA - Royal Yachting Association

 

[dgadee]

I I understand (sic) it, EU directives are a minimum. If a member state wishes to go further - as the UK frequently did - it can add more when it implements the directive.

Yes, but the driving force behind so much of the EU's legislation is this idea of 'harmonization of the internal market' where there should be a level playing field for all actors in all member states, so you can go further but not if it acts as a barrier to that harmonization. Even the European Trademark Office in Alicante was known as the Office for Harmonization in the Internal Market (OHIM) in its early days. That basic philosophy is why the EU are so jumped up about the UK being outwith the regime and not controllable.

Edit: oops, Not UK, GB. NI is controlled.

 

[TernVI]

There is an international
Protocol that the EU has signed upto. It allows bunkered fuels to be brought into ports and not be subject to duty. The protocol was used by the owners of super yachts who had been fined in Germany. There was an article on this and a comment which stated that officials were ignorant of the law and had acted illegally. The case brought by the owners was exactly because of the marker being in the fuel. They had full traceability of fuel purchases and samples. That’s my recollection. I’ll see what I can dig up.

Superyachts are likely a grey area anyway, many of them being run as businesses and possibly being classified differently due to their size. They tend towards being small cruise ships with not many customers.

 

[Daydream believer]

The French flare rule doesn't apply to visitors.

Are you sure, because when we had a cruise in company for the D day event in 2019- 3 of our yachts were motoring home in convoy. En route Le Havre to Eastbourne. The first 2 were boarded by French customs & as well as papers etc. ,they had to produce their flares, which were checked for date. All being correctly dated.

 

[Daydream believer]

If a private boat arrives into the EU from somewhere like the USA. with red diesel ;how are they treated? There must be quite a few & the issue must have been raised. Are we any different from the USA regarding 3 rd nation status?