Bavaria Keel - Here we go again!

[RobWard]

I'm going to give the full story because I am genuinely baffled at what to do.

We bought a Bav 30 5 years ago, and for the first 2 years everything was fine, including the bilges! which were bone dry. Then on a trip up the Avon Gorge we hit something hard, which gave us a fright; but all seemed OK, and when we took the boat out for antifoul a few months later there was absolutely no movement in the keel or any sign of damage.

However since then the bilges have started to accumulate water - not much, maybe a cm or so over a few weeks ... until we recently realised that on the occasions when we were out in rougher weather rather more water accumulated. (WE thought for a while it might be other things like the water tank leaking, but I've now proved to my own satisfaction that the freshwater plumbing goes nowhere near the bilges.) This came to a head last week when we sailed across the Solway Firth to Kirkudbright with the wind on the nose and wind over tide - lots of slamming, healing and pitching. And yes, when we anchored there was rather more water sloshing around than we would like.

Having thoroughly pumped and dried the bilges I am pretty sure that there IS seepage around just one of the keel bolts - I thought I could see it but that may have been me imaging things! So, some of the large number of questions I have to resolve this are

1) How serious is this likely to be? Is it one of those things we could live with for years, or is the keel in imminent danger of falling off?
2) Is it worth just redoing the one bolt first (remove it; grind it, reseat in suitable compound then retighten to approved torque); or will nothing less than the removal and refitting of the entire keel do?
3) Is there anyone (surveyor) in NW England who could offer a qualified opinion on the matter, and
4) Can anyone recommend a boatyard within easy reach of Whitehaven who have a good reputation for this sort of work?

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments you may have.

 

[billskip]

I'm going to give the full story because I am genuinely baffled at what to do.

We bought a Bav 30 5 years ago, and for the first 2 years everything was fine, including the bilges! which were bone dry. Then on a trip up the Avon Gorge we hit something hard, which gave us a fright; but all seemed OK, and when we took the boat out for antifoul a few months later there was absolutely no movement in the keel or any sign of damage.

However since then the bilges have started to accumulate water - not much, maybe a cm or so over a few weeks ... until we recently realised that on the occasions when we were out in rougher weather rather more water accumulated. (WE thought for a while it might be other things like the water tank leaking, but I've now proved to my own satisfaction that the freshwater plumbing goes nowhere near the bilges.) This came to a head last week when we sailed across the Solway Firth to Kirkudbright with the wind on the nose and wind over tide - lots of slamming, healing and pitching. And yes, when we anchored there was rather more water sloshing around than we would like.

Having thoroughly pumped and dried the bilges I am pretty sure that there IS seepage around just one of the keel bolts - I thought I could see it but that may have been me imaging things! So, some of the large number of questions I have to resolve this are

1) How serious is this likely to be? Is it one of those things we could live with for years, or is the keel in imminent danger of falling off?
2) Is it worth just redoing the one bolt first (remove it; grind it, reseat in suitable compound then retighten to approved torque); or will nothing less than the removal and refitting of the entire keel do?
3) Is there anyone (surveyor) in NW England who could offer a qualified opinion on the matter, and
4) Can anyone recommend a boatyard within easy reach of Whitehaven who have a good reputation for this sort of work?

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments you may have.

I would first be absolutly certain I knew where the water was coming from.

 

[Talulah]

Have you tasted the water?
If water has leaked from somewhere else it's possible it's been trapped in place until the boat gets healed, slammed etc. So taste test.
In addition thoroughly dry the bilge area and sprinkle something like flour down. Go motoring around and watch the flour.
I would do as much analysis yourself first before employing a surveyor.
If you are convinced its the keel then I'm afraid it is moving and other than benign conditions I wouldn't be going out.
I would check if the insurance would then cover subsequent repairs.
At that point a surveyor would probably just tell you what you would already know.
The boat would need to be out of the water and then you would tap test with a hammer the surrounding area.
Depending upon the level of damage I would expect some of the floor area around the keel especially at the rear to sound mushy.

 

[JFowler]

It might be worth posting you query on the (free) Bavaria Forum
Bavaria Yacht Info - Index

 

[Allan]

I would first be absolutly certain I knew where the water was coming from.

Many years ago I read that covering an area with talcum powder was a good way to find the source of a leak. Maybe you could try something like that?
Allan

 

[RobWard]

It might be worth posting you query on the (free) Bavaria Forum
Bavaria Yacht Info - Index

Thanks for that - I confused it with the Owners association. Will do.

 

[ashtead]

You might have leaking stanchions in the bow cabin -have you looked behind the panels in the bow ? Just thinking of obvious other issues I assume the saildrive is all ok and the seal isn’t the culprit? If it is definitely the bolts I would rely on local recommendations initially as well as owners club. You don’t say which year the Bav dates from?

 

[RobWard]

Hi, good point, the boat is 2006. Your point about the stanchions is interesting, the forepeak was damp a while back but after I dried it it has so far stayed dry. Also there is a watertight bulkhead there so water can't go aft.

 

[dankilb]

4) Can anyone recommend a boatyard within easy reach of Whitehaven who have a good reputation for this sort of work?

We would very wholeheartedly recommend Blue Point Marine in Liverpool as a yard equipped to do this sort of work, if needs be. We started off as customers but after 9 months of refit work (mostly DIY but we need them for ‘yard services’) I’d now consider them ‘mates’. Not the most yachty, hand holdy, “yes sir, no sir” place by any means - but that sounds like a S Coast nightmare to me! PM if you’d like more details or a contact.

 

[jordanbasset]

Our water it came from leaking stanchions, which had obviously been loose for some time. Over the winter water had accumulated, but initially didn't look very much.
It can accumulate in hard to get to areas. Then in rough seas this gets dished around the boat.
We spent some time wicking out water in our Bavaria
No problem after we sorted the stanchions

 

[billskip]

Hi, good point, the boat is 2006. Your point about the stanchions is interesting, the forepeak was damp a while back but after I dried it it has so far stayed dry. Also there is a watertight bulkhead there so water can't go aft.

I know its irritating, but dont be to quick to dismiss things, as said above talc powder, flower or even lay out toilet paper and watch for damp.
It may well be the keel bolt you suspect, but if you prove it then you wont be disturbing fittings unnecessarily.

 

[RobWard]

Our water it came from leaking stanchions, which had obviously been loose for some time. Over the winter water had accumulated, but initially didn't look very much.
It can accumulate in hard to get to areas. Then in rough seas this gets dished around the boat.
We spent some time wicking out water in our Bavaria
No problem after we sorted the stanchions

Interesting. Stupid question - what did you use for wicking? I'm going to use an oil extractor pump to empty some of the stringers (the channels that go across the boat rather than end to end) is they have crude holes cut in them to accommodate the bilge pumps, and there's certainly accumulated muck there!)

 

[RobWard]

I know its irritating, but dont be to quick to dismiss things, as said above talc powder, flower or even lay out toilet paper and watch for damp.
It may well be the keel bolt you suspect, but if you prove it then you wont be disturbing fittings unnecessarily.

No, I'm absolutely on the case, I'll be heading for the boat this week with a bag of flour! Thanks all for the suggestion.

 

[vyv_cox]

Assuming you have an iron keel, water that leaks in through keel bolts is usually rusty.

 

[dunedin]

It may be different with Essex mud, but to my mind after any grounding, particularly if “hit hard”, it is an immediate lift and check by a surveyor (generally both costs being covered by the insurer).
Often have to remove some interior stuff - certainly all floorboards, but sometimes table etc to get access - to check the floor structure, as it is common that this may have cracks and need repair.

It is possible that the water is coming in elsewhere (leaking hatch etc), but I would certainly want a check by a surveyor if ANY concerns about the keel

 

[westernman]

It might just be engine mounts are going mushy. Then in heavy weather the engine moves around causing the stern gland to leak a bit more than normal.

But from your description it sounds more like the keel - and I don't think that is good.

 

[jordanbasset]

Interesting. Stupid question - what did you use for wicking? I'm going to use an oil extractor pump to empty some of the stringers (the channels that go across the boat rather than end to end) is they have crude holes cut in them to accommodate the bilge pumps, and there's certainly accumulated muck there!)

I used a large sponge cloth and rolled it up to feed it into the hole. Then every now and then wrung it out it out. Took a few days but got it all in the end. There is probably a more efficient method, but it was not urgent and we weren't busy

 

[Tranona]

Highly unlikely to be the keel bolts as the only way seawater can get in is through a failed hull/keel seal and that needs to be very serious because the keel is glued to the hull. You say there was no signs of damage.

If it is salt water after hard sailing it is almost certainly coming in through leaky deck fittings. If it is fresh then from the plumbing. The water (however it gets in) runs down into the bilge and the stringers then eventually finds it way into the central spine around the aft keel bolt leading you to believe the bolt is leaking. Mop it up, build a dam around the bolt and try to find where the water is coming from I can almost guarantee it is not from the keel bolt. Several threads on the bavariayacht info forum on the subject

 

[ashtead]

Yes I had assumed not plumbing but the other thing that leaks on Bavaria Apart from deck fittings etc are the plastic hot and cold pipes in red and blue where they connect to the calorifier. Small holes appear and spray a fine jet of water out. The connections used from whale are universally available and usual solution is to cut a small half inch off pipe and reconnect. You could take the panel off in bow and have your crew wash down the decks with a pressure washer to check. If it’s been ongoing a while you might find the panel distorted.

 

[Refueler]

Many years ago I read that covering an area with talcum powder was a good way to find the source of a leak. Maybe you could try something like that?
Allan

Its actually first thing to do once area is mopped dry. That way you know exactly where its coming from.

Once you have highlighted source IF ITS serious fittings ... then its contact Insurers .... who will probably want to appoint an assessor to check it out. IF you have one keel bolt leaking - I would suggest that ALL bolts have suffered stress.

Now I say this as one who surveyed many yachts over years not only in UK ... most surveyors will not be able to determine fully what is damaged and its money often for nothing. The only way to really know is lift out ... into stand and then loosen keel bolts - jack her up to drop keel.

That is skilled yard work.

Once keel is dropped ... the extent of GRP surrounding damage can then be investigated. It may often require serious GRP work.

Its work that I have been involved in ... and it is not for DIY ... last one I was with ... Ridas 35 in Tallinn .. hit the Submarine underwater refueling block at 7kts .....
Lifted boat ... jacked her up after measuring the offset keel had ... barely noticeable. Dropped out the keel - reamed out the keel bolt holes, Glassed to reset and once set ... sealant applied to keel face, boat lowered onto keel ... Sikaflex injected round keel bolts replacing that removed ... the Sikaflex provides a flexi stress relieving function. Nuts / washers then wound down to secure keel. Ridas is famous for keels that survive what others often fail to.