Are marinas a rip off?

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

Err, give me a chance to research this and respond properly! We are not in the business of upsetting customers in any way,
J
ps my direct office number is 023 8045 0209 mobile 078 0117 2575 home 01590 681457 if this matter is not resolved to your satisfaction

 

[John_N]

Re: MDL and storage charges

Congratulations to John Watson for having the guts to defend his (very weak) case for exorbitant UK marina charges. However, how does he explain the justification of a charge of £130+ (including VAT which we all have to pay) for lifting out a 10m. yacht in an operation which usually takes no longer than 20 minutes? Garages publish their hourly charge rates. What are his and how much does he pay his operatives?
The really iniquitous part is the refusal of most marina operators to make adequate recompense to berth holders who are away cruising for much or the summer whilst the marina makes a killing from double letting the berth.
Nevertheless, 'market forces' prevail and until we 'vote with our feet' (excuse the metaphor) the fat cats will flourish.

 

[halcyon]

Re: MDL and storage charges

Afraid it's not only MDL, last time our local yard launched me it cost £127, that was to lift, transport 200 yds and drive into water, I motored out of hoist!.
That was in 1996, never been back, we all have a choice.

Brian

 

[rhinorhino]

Wrong key I fear, please try again.

 

[lauradee]

Re: MDL and storage charges

oh and i forgot john,
why did it cost me £187 on the hamble to lift the boat on the truck and £47 at pwllhelli to offload?
and £248 to step the mast on the hamble and £99 at pwllheli?
i spoke to performance rigging, asked them to sharpen their pencil, and they said that the biggest cost was the MDL lift.
stu

 

[jonjo]

The French example posted by Sybarite above illustrates that a Marina alone is not that expensive to operate. The difference is that over there local communites and government want it to happen.

So my question to John Watson:

Given local will and central government decree, how many extra Marina beths could be created between Chichester and Weymouth without resorting to Brighton marina type civil engineering?

 

[jimboaw]

You got that right John. 2500 sterling a year (monthly rate) for a 40' boat on a live-aboard dock, electric,and pump out included, in one of the most exclusive places on the FL Gulf coast. The electric alone with the air conditioner running 265 days a year would cost me that at an MDL marina.

 

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John_N , obviously you are not in business and do not understand the laws of supply and demand.
If you would like a chat on this, do please call me.
Regards,
john

 

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

Stu
Something to do with cost base perhaps?

 

[tcm]

Lunchtime stops

I don't think marinas are "ripoffs" and indeed since i have such huge power over the buying decision (like whether to have a boat at all) then it will have to be high indeed to become a true ripoff, I think. Being ripped off is when something is advertised at one price or free, but in reality is much higher, isn't it? A retail Sting. This can't be said of marinas.

Marinas charges stand up to a "daylight test" - the test being that if the issue was made fully public - then what? Would their be an outcry? And under a daylight test, a 100k boat is charged perhaps 4-5k a year, which won't be seen as "steep" given that you're already in for the 100k. Cheaper than parking a car in another congested area like London, for example, where if you had a private space you could expect to pay 5 grtand a year or buy outright for 40-50k.

My suggestion, as in the title, is that lunchtime stops are free. Lunchtime should be defined as say 11-3pm. Any stop within that time, free. It can't be a huge moneyspinner, and it's this aspect of UK boating that is distasteful to the newbie. If you stop in a port anytime before lunch and see a marina person whizzing over in italy, france, or spain - they're coming to help, no question. In the UK, if there a marina staff person on his way over, they're after their five or ten quid, and won't touch the lines. Not much of an advert for the place really, imho.

 

[stubate]

or monopoly?

john
or perhaps charging what you can get away with? or monopoly? why not allow external cranes on site?
in fact i wonder what the human rights people would have to say about the right to move ones own property about?
stu

 

[david_e]

Re: In for a penny...

OK if the boat costs £100k, but you could be charged the same for a boat that costs say £20k and is the same length. The real daylight test would be for the operators to provide full transparency of costs & income, however they are under no pressure to do this (and why should they) so we have to accept the situation as it is now.

With regard to Rip-Off prices, the argument is less about supply and demand at this moment in time and as it affects so relatively few people is of little concern to any politician at a higher level. (unless they all start boating)

The bigger question, and wider political issue, imho, is about land/water/access etc. Where the land is owned privately then they can charge what they like is a simple assumption. However I suspect that there are areas where that is not the case. eg Pwllheli. There is a 4 year wait to get on the marina, costs have gone up this year by aprox rpi which is normal. However with such demand you would have thought they could charge maybe 50% more before demand starts to tail off, but the marina is owned by the council, whilst being run (very well I might add) by a specialist marina operator. So who decides how much, I dunno?

There is space in the harbour to double the number of berths after dredging etc and no shortage of investors willing to put money into the supporting service networks etc. Yet the plans to expand are small and slow.

If more land/planning and water was available around the UK then I am sure that in time supply might equal demand.

 

[stubate]

you\'ve been there too long.

i always suspected that savvaners lived on another planet, you buy a property for 100k and then are effectively rated at 4-5k pA?? get real.
if it was applied to the whole of the electorate the poll tax riots would pale into insignificance!!
the only good thing about you lot down there paying such outrageous prices is that it has given other greedy b*****ds the idea of doing it up here in north wales, with all the marinas being constructed or going thru the planning phase we are going to end up with (with a bit of luck) a surplus of places and then market forces can come into play.
stu

 

[tcm]

Re: 4-year waiting list

Good points, davvid.

Axshully i would like to know more about these "4-year" waiting lists. Given that you haven't packed in your boat, neither have your mates at poohelly and even if it sold then then renewal would (probably?) be forthcoming ....what's a 4-year waiting list. It might only be four people? Or eight?

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: or monopoly?

I can help you here (and no, I'm not defending John or his company).

Have you ever tried hiring a crane and then facing off all of the insurance and health and safety requirements? It's not such an easy thing, as any private club that still manages it can testify. I once got involved in that kind of operation and had a few sweaty moments working out where the different liabilities fell at different points in the operation. Gets quite interesting especially if a truck is also involved.

Okay, so you get a few friends together and the costs can be cheap. But then presumably one has to accept that the existing facility at the marina is used less, becomes uneconomical which then leads to further increases and ultimately removal. May be okay, until a boat in the marina starts sinking at 2am or one nearby hits something solid.

I'm not sure that booking private cranes into marinas is an answer myself. Especially if that means a mixed variety of different operators driving in through the gate and swinging extremely heavy objects near my boat. Also mobile cranes rarely arrive with boat-friendly slings (ie clean!) or spreaders (ie potential to squash boats).

Different thought - would it make any difference to a marina operator if a berthing association guaranteed a certain number of lifts in the year and at certian times? In busy marinas with long booking lists maybe not at first glance. But given the traditional seasonal peaks could there be some intelligent dialogue between all parties to phase work through the year and hence make the marina's investment more attractive to run?

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[kimhollamby]

What news North Wales?

No, in the case David is talking about it is a lot of boats, well at least it was when I last visited his marina (in 1999).

Out of interest how is progress with new marinas in the area? I believe from memory Beaumaris has been accepted - any work commenced yet. And any other marinas?

Had a warm welcome in the area when we took Missing Link through the Menai Strait and was amazed at just how busy the likes of Port Dinorwic, Conwy, Pwllheli and Liverpool were, even then. Cannot believe it has got any less congested.

Local council owned marinas can lead to sensible prices, but that has not always been the case. Thanet District Council went through some wild jump-on-the-bandwagon moments for Ramsgate in the 1990s when I had a boat there that almost showed private companies the way; absurd given that the town must benefit immensely from yachting tourism.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[tcm]

Re: but the cheapskates will gettem!

Good idea to bundle in services like a lift out and a lift in. Extra lifts 100 quid or 200 quid or whatever....but it won't work imho.

In a totally different industry, we've been pressuirised into "including training" as part of the purchase of software. Which sounds fine.. but along comes someone who sayss he knows the software and needs no training, and please can he have a reduction of the software price LESS the retail price of one or two days of training. Ah no we don't reduce it by that much... cue expletives of outraged customers and wot a ripoff.

So, if there were any bundled liftsin/out, it will have to be understood that they're free. No, can't pass rthem to others, takem this year or they dissappear, and so on. then it might just work. But the sterndriveies and bilge keelers might be very narked at the increase for a service they never use, what a rippoff and so on.

 

[bigmart]

Re: MDL and storage charges

The validity of arguments regarding supply & demand are often diluted when on company owns the majority of facilities in one area, as is often the case with MDL. Torbay & the Hamble are two examples that I can think of. Price fixing & cartels of small groups of company's that own the majority of services in one area are always going to be suspected.

Whilst you can argue that the laws of supply & demand still operate in these areas a truly free market, where there was open competition from a large number of facilities, would undeniably lead to lower pricing.

To this end MDL has only itself to blame for the number of complaints directed at it. I must admit I am a little surprised that Mr. Watson attempts to defend situations where MDL hold the majority of facilities like this. Better to keep your head down knowing that you will win in the end anyway

Martin

 

[johna]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John
I would hope that the cost of services to berth holders is not subject to supply and demand these should be on a cost plus reasonable profit basis. The supply and demand aspect is satisfied by the berthing charges. By all means non berth holders could be charged differently.

I am still waiting to see your reduced cost package plus other.

Thank you for sticking your neck over the parapet.
Johna

 

[david_e]

Re: 4-year waiting list

You will be made very welcome at PW, especially when you buy your boat locally. There is a helipad so trips from the dark south should be easy enuf, and if you get any probs with the chopper I can always fix it (just drag me old workshop manuals out).

If you fancy a sail then you could go for a white knuckle ride with mrs david_e on the helm.

Oh..the list....information comes from peeps who have received letters from the marina explaining the 400 or so on it and the average annual turnaround rate etc. I think it is good PR and polite to let these folk know the situation (have had one meself in the past, bit like being rejected for credit!)

Before you say it, there are no doubt plenty of those on the list who won't have a boat and another batch who would have at the time but can't now etc, but I understand the list has grown from 300 - 400 in the last year or so. Even the dealers are struggling, I know of one who has relinquished their demo berth to sell a new boat.

So how am I going to get on thinks tcm? Well, park and launch me ol mate! Look good watching the massey ferguson slipping a phantom 40 in and out for the week-end)