Are marinas a rip off?

[tcm]

Re: white knuckle helm

Hurrah. I may have a go at a 30 foot , or more likely get ione of those nice swan 60's that look pretty decent. The salesman reckoned we needed 12 crew but that's all rubbish: the possibly drug-crazed Mrs "E" can helm while i have a go at the laundry hoisting, and we'll definitely win cos we'll have no antifoul!

 

[stubate]

youv\'e been brainwashed matey

that was the stock reply from the brokers when i brought this up with them and i suspect a bit of spin doctoring has been going on.
if you do a turn key operation why are you worrying about insurance and health and safety, employ pros and they give you a pro job.
a few years ago i moved a 30 ft boat in exactly the same way from wrexham to pwllheli, i phoned up the local haulage company who were also a plant hire co and told them what i wanted, lift boat onto lo loader, drive to pwllheli and offload, an iron fairy turned up with the lo loader, slings, spreaders etc on to wagon and away.
no prob, turn key operation by one company, whats the problem? and to suggest that crane drivers near other boats is a prob? why? they are pros, they make their living lifting things in tight quarters. its a bit like the "oh its marine, its different, corrosive, a hobgoblin might get me,more tooth sucking, guess i'll have to pay more"
why cant we break away from that mentality?
and as for the argument of what happens in the middle of the night, well, hows about looking at it from a different perspective, if we had more people able and allowed to do lifts maybe then we would have a choice of who to call, and maybe a bit of competition would bring down prices, we do live in a capitalist society and market forces do rule and if MDL were forced to compete??
stu

 

[[2574]]

I would be grateful for the website address of this french marina group?

Thanks in anticipation

 

[tcm]

cost plus, reasonable profits, spare change

Ooh I'm sure John Watson will do all in his power to make berthing and servicing almost free. Unlikely, and i hope he won't.

Let's be realistic. As others have said, the same capaitalist system that allowed people to buy their own boat won't magically turn into a workers co-operative once they have done so.

It most certainly means that the laws of supply and demand will apply. If there are emptty berths cos everyone sells the boat, the prices will tumble. Otherwise they won't.

As for "cost-plus"...who on earth gives a monkeys? Not me. I don't care if jw makes 100% profit, or loses money hand over fist cos he overpaid for loo paper. I buy things on a market-price basis. So do we all. if one marina decides to start off at half the prices of another, we all nip over there if it's otherise pretty much the same. We don't stay in the expensive marina saying "ah well, see, we think it's reasonable of us to stay with MDL cos we had look at thieer accounts, and x% profit is reasonable whereas as the loss-leading policy over there is economically not viable in the medium to long term".

I hope we can all agree on this: unless you are TBlair, there are no such things as:
Fair and reasonable tax
Excess profit
Spare change

These have all beein invented to appeal to brits, who constantly use subjective phrases such as nice weather, pleasnt people, and happy endings. But prices use the blunt and simplistic scale of money, and prices are what they are. You can compare them to other prices or other things and see them as (relatively) high or low.

So what's MDL to do? Well, poncing about with these 20-40 foot berths is no good at all for shareholders. They're being very nice keeping them all going. Surely it would be a mcuh better idea to make more 50 -80 foot berths, easing pressure on admin and at the same time note that a 50 foot berth can command a much higher price that 2x25 footers? I would say that it's about the going rate for an eighty foot boat to pay about 12 grand +services in prime space. So, that means that a 25 foot boat should pay a third, or 4 grand plus services.

 

[stubate]

more up market in conway

phoned up deganway developers to enquire when going on line, early 2003, going to be more upmarket than conway, really, conway and up market !!,
beaumaris next year, holyhead putting more berths in, y felinhelli has plenty of space etc etc,
dare i say it pwlheli going to expand if rumour is true.
stu

 

[kimhollamby]

Oooh ouch, no not brainwashed...

...just trying to think it through. Haven't got a clue who your broker is and certainly not in the habit of soaking up spin from anyone.

You had a good experience, for which I'm genuinely pleased for you. I've also had good (personal) experiences with external haulage and crane contractors (although what I said about insurance is absolutely true - if you don't believe me check where your various policies begin and end on a lift out of the water and onto a truck).

But marina companies cannot move travel lifts to other places and so they can only work with their captive audience. Even in the marinas where they use a conventional crane most if not all of them are capable, or at the very least insured and plated, to move around. So I would suggest to you that external contractors would mean onsite crane out rather than choosing between, say a travel lift and an external crane...you might see that as an okay thing and I'm not arguing one way or the other on that one. If a budget marina, such as has been hinted about on recent threads about this subject, was possible in the future then I'm absolutely sure that any crane-out operations would be with visiting cranes; that would save a hefty six-figure investment plus running costs straight off.

I'm not saying all crane drivers would or do bash boats. But if the aim is to get the best deal, sooner or later someone is going to land a bad one where the cut price is reflective of the standard and when they did, being strangely selfish, I would rather it was not my boat that it deposited its jib on. I'm assuming you wouldn't want any kind of approved contractors list because that would immediately smack of price control and so in your scenario it could and would be all comers?

You are right to remark that boating should not occupy a holy inner sanctum in the workings of the world but not all general contractors fully get to grips with the emotional attachment an owner tends to have with the things of earth. I've not personally heard of any 'towering inferno' type disasters with external contractors but I have seen the results of hobnails generously smeared with axle grease on teak decks (interesting random pattern, should last for at least 100 years if hung in the Tate where no doubt it would win an award) and aggregate-imbedded slings on gelcoat and paint (more subtle but just as heart-wrenching). Again, not all of them are like that but some are.

When you read all of this I find myself wanting you to believe that I personally understand the angst over marina pricing because I, like you, have received plenty of bills over the years, not all of them pretty.

Finally, reason for my last para on previous post was simply that I am wondering of there are more intelligent ways in which the utilisation of an onsite crane can be made more commercially attractive to operators and more price attractive to users by some greater co-operation between all parties.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[david_e]

Re: hoists

Not sure how much they cost, but you are right about needing qualified bods to operate them. However, at an average of say £150 per lift, and 8 lifts a day for about 40 weeks of the year - then you have £250kish sort of income per hoist. allow £25k for the bod (assuming not ex-fireman, can pay em less) and £25k for servicing and financing, then would guess not bad ROI? But don't know cost of hoist so is only a guess.

 

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

Martin
We do not 'own' Torbay - we lease Torquay and Brixham from the Council.
On the economic arguement, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Fact - I get a tiny number of complaints over price from our existing customers. Reason I do NOT keep my head down is that I genuinely want customer feedback.
Feel free to pop in anytime to debate these or any other issues,
Stay well,
John

 

[jwatson]

Re: youv\'e been brainwashed matey

Stu
I understand your points but just do not agree. The cost of logistical admin, apart from Health & safety issues, by having multiple operators on our sites would not work in my view. Would they all bring their own equipment on site? Who would the customer complain to if things went 'wrong?' What would happen if two operators booked lifts at the same time by genuine mistake. Who would take precedence/who would wait, perhaps until the next day?We debated this long and hard last year and the answer was not to proceed.
By the way, our lifting operation is practically full to capacity at all sites.
I know that isn't what you want to hear but it is true.
Having said all that, we have recently undergone a boatyard operations review and I do expect some changes over the coming months to our MO.

 

[jwatson]

Re: cost plus, reasonable profits, spare change

TCM - ok, you passed the interview, when do you start?

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: hoists

I've never seen any detailed figures...amongst other things I expect costs have risen under influence of H and S grounds. Wouldn't be surprised, for example, to discover there is a legislated minimum number of staff for op (or that effectively a minimum number comes out of risk assessment). Either way it's going to be more than one bod.

H and S also an issue on equipment upgrades perhaps? I work a little bit in theatre lighting for fun and the goalposts always seem to be moving with rigging and safety-related stuff so I expect the same true of hoists. I once bought a load of new safety chains for my own lights, only to discover that I needed the new wire-type bonds to stay up-to-speed about one month later. My fault for not checking why I got a good price on the chains!

Also the demand for bigger hoists has become apparent in certain parts, which I guess hits the capex (although it tends to allow smaller marinas to acquire machinery secondhand which might help).

I wonder if in fact hoists are always averaging your guesstimated usage? I suspect what happens is that they have a mad period of, say, 20 weeks max where they do better than eight per day in busy marinas but then lie very quiet for the balance - hence I guess some of the useful summer offers. That is also where consumer power can work a bit because if your marina isn't offering the deal, the next one along the coast might be and it is certainly easier to take advantage of that in the summer.

I've often delayed antifouling until the middle of the year when growth also gets worse, taken a cheaper lift and enjoyed the benefit of a clean hull for the balance of the summer; loses a couple of days afloat but more pleasant to do the work - well sometimes anyway. Of course if you lay up ashore then this is all academic but I prefer to winter afloat whenever possible.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[Observer]

Isn\'t it actually the reverse..

of what you suggested? Marinas charge by the metre LOA. So I pay £x per metre for my 9.5m boat (say £2.5k) and you (well if Diana was over here) pay £x per metre for your (what is it?) 23m boat - say £6k. But your 23m boat is probably 10 times the size of mine measured by volume. So it's the big boats which get the better deal. They take more space but pay proportionately much less.

Otherwise, I agree completely with your comments. MDL and other operators are in business - period.

 

[tcm]

Re: oh no sir.

Ah well that would be very nice indeed. But many places you pay by the metre - but within a price band. We do inFrance anyway. The price band is set by the "what we think we can get awy with" committee such that a 5 metre pays (say) 500 quid, a 4 metre 400 quid and so on all very nice and fair. But at 20 metres (and elsewhere) up the scale it leaps to another price band. So a 23 metre is lots more than twice an 11.5 metre, say. However, I am hoist by own right-wing petard so will sit here and turn blue.

 

[Sybarite]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John,

You may be in business but the economics side of your argument is not so hot.

Supply and demand as factors for fixing prices only work when there is a free and open market. With the lift-out charges referred to, there appears to be a complete monopoly within the marina if no alternative haul-out arrangement is permitted.

In terms of berthing charges I don't know enough about the UK market to be definitive but I assume that you have concessions from the local authorities which if not eliminating competion severely reduce it - at best an oligopolistic situation.

The local authorities in France would seem to see the larger picture where boats equal tourists equal local tourist revenues and don't drive these away with exorbitant charges. The berthing charges also widen the market to those who can marginally afford boat ownership, which enables more boats to be sold bringing down the unit price of boats etc etc.

It may also be worth noting that in over 20 years of boating in France I have never once been charged for a stop other than an overnight charge nor for water or electricity. This includes the Mediterranean islands of Port Cros and Porquerolles where there is a severe water shortage in summer.

Many years ago the insurance companies in France virtually priced motor bikes out of the market. What did the bikers do? They banded together in a federation and created their own insurance company and a political pressure group which got motor bikes excluded from road taxes. The price of insurance tumbled
(competition...! ) and look how many motor bikes there are now.

The undue exploitation of a market strength has a certain short term business advantage but it is my (business) experience that it is bad business in the longer term.

 

[Observer]

I stand corrected

Does that apply in the UK also? I just assumed the rates are linear (dangerous things, assumptions). By the way, surely you mean "sit here and turn bluer"?

 

[Bergman]

Re: or monopoly?

Actually done that twice, at a local boatyard where they don't have a boat lift,

Cost £80 to lift 4 boats

Crane was properly equipped and driver very very professional. He lifts heavier and more expensive things in close quarters every day - its his full time job.

No problems with insurance

No problems at all

Not entering debate otherwise - totally pointless.

 

[jwatson]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

John T
On semantics, I would swop 'fixing' for 'setting' prices...
I do not buy your arguement about 'undue exploitation' of a market. Every customer has a choice. If he wants a marina, he will pay to be in one - over 50,000 folk in the UK do. Many marinas are full so why should they reduce prices? Charity?
I understand where you are coming from, but a few questions...
When someone takes their car to a main dealer garage for a service, does the dealer let them bring in their own mechanic to work on it on their premises?
How often have consumers written to British Airways complaining about their First Class air fares?
I think the issue is quite simple. Market forces will win through at the end of the day. They usually do. Customer is king, always will be.
Cheers,
John

 

[bigmart]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

This was the point of my earlier post.

It is not a, totally, free market economy when one supplier controls the majority of facilities in one area.

Don't get me wrong, I too am in business & accept that you have a duty to your Company & Shareholders to maximise profits, but don't expect the rest of us to be happy when they see these situations where MDL control so much of the local facilities that you &, in some cases,other operators can maintain prices which, the local economy wouldn't normally support, if it were more open.

For me I boat on an overdraft. The only time I visit your facilities is when on holiday & then only for the shortest time possible. It will be a very long time before I can afford the luxury of keeping my boat in the more convenient areas where you place your facilities.

 

[John_N]

Re: MDL and storage charges

No John, I am not in business but I do understand the laws of 'supply and demand'.
That is why I referred to 'market forces' in my post, so pleases do not be so arrogant and condescending.
I also understsand the principles of ethics and mutual trust. You are probably too young to remember that fifty years ago there was an infamous Mr.Rachman in the housing business who made a lot of money but had nothing to be proud of! Similarly, during the war there were many people who made a business of exploiting the shortage of desirable and essential commodities - they were known as Spivs. It could even be argued that a kidnapper holding a person to ransom is merely operating the laws of 'supply and demand! Surely there is more to dealings amongst mankind than this.
Someone suggested that the price to the consumer should reflect the cost of materials and invested capital plus a fair mark-up for the services provided, which applies in many fields of business but certainly not in such a rapacious one as you represent.
You may consider that I am naive and out of touch with reality. I am not. I realise (to my cost) that this is the way business operates, but that still does not prove the justice of the situation.
Finally, I suppose it would be too much to expect you to justify the lift out charges quoted in my post by publishing a breakdown of the constituent costs.
The huge amount of dissatisfaction shown by your customers (victims?) shows that your arguments just will not wash, John.
John N.

 

[lauradee]

our time will come

market forces will rule eventually, and part of that market force is us complaining, another part will be when the economy takes a dive, which it will as sure as god made little apples and all the fools who are over extended will have to sell their toys and greedy short term marina owners will find their revenue drying up. most of us on this forum are biz men, i suspect, and resent being told by a cocky (young ?) MD how to run a biz.
MDs should as part of their biz strategy be looking to the future and guarding their client base, not alianating it.
i understand that marinas on the south coast are in a unique situation because planning permission is even harder to get for one nowadays but that is not an excuse for short term hi profits.
i do not particularly care for this government in power but i bet a well orchestrated campaign hi lighting the hi charges being made could arouse the interest of some of the Old Labour dinosaurs in parliament !!