Are marinas a rip off?

[nicho]

Re: MDL and storage charges

This whole argument is becoming over complex - to my mind it's very simple, you pays your money and you takes your choice!!!

I want to drive a quality car to travel in comfort even though a "banger" would get me from A to B, and I am prepared to pay the going price to have the car of my choice.

I would love to live in a big house overlooking the South Coast but I can't afford to do this and pursue my other interests, so I live in a nice house in the Midlands - this is my choice!

If I'm flying long haul, I pay to go business class, expensive yes, but this is my choice!

If I want to keep my boat in a South Coast, secure marina, I have to pay the price, this is my choice! I could, living where I do (subject to waiting lists) find a cheaper berth in Pwhelli or similar, but I want to do my boating on the South Coast, this is my choice!

Of course I complain about the price of all these things, but at the end of the day, I know what I want and, where possible, I pay the going rate. If I can't, I don't!

No-one, MDL included, is forcing me, with a gun to my head, to take a berth at their marina - the choice is mine!!

Over the past few months we have looked at a number of South Coast marinas, all with similar facilities (MDL, Premier Group, Dean & Reddyhoff) and certainly there are not huge differences in their charges. There is, however, one particular marina in the area which would cost over £1,000 less for our boat. We chose to stay with MDL because we like our marina - we had the choice, and we made our choice!!

My main gripe for 2003 is the justification for ALL of these marinas (not just MDL) putting their prices up way above the inflation rate. It is, of course, their prerogative to do this and once again I have the choice to stay or go! The fact that most marinas remain pretty much full to capacity, would indicate that there are scores of thousands of like minded folk making the same choice.

There may come a time when we cannot afford to stay at our first choice of marina, and we will then have to think again, but in the meantime we will bite the bullet and pay the price!

Of course, these subjects are fodder for lively discussion on these forums, and they are all the more interesting for it ......... but always remember the choice is yours!!

 

[tcm]

Re: totally free market

well, just a min, the butcher the baker the candlestick maker each controls a facility in their area. I disgaree that MDL has a grip in the manner someone who controls the only waterwell in a medieval village.

For myself, I was on the south coast, not mdl as it happens, it matters not, but moved the boat to france. From France, others have d moved to Croatia or Greece for similar reasons. Many others do the same around the UK, to avoid crowds, better weather and so on. I don't believe that a marina operator could raise prices by a factor of two, as some posts seem to to suggest that they could. MDL competes in the wider sphere of the leisure industry, and we all join or leave as we want.

The simple complaint seems to be that it ought to be cheaper - because it could be cheaper. Sure, it could be cheaper.

Firstly the sad fact is that lower prices never makes a customer happier. People who want lower prices actually hate it when a discount or reduction is eventually won - look at all the money they wasted the year before! - and if they've come down by 10% - doesn't that seem a suspiciously round number? And so on.

Secondly, I repeat that there isn't definitive figure of a "fair" price for parking a boat against pre-existing cleats. The marginal cost is actually nothing at all, we all know that. But there's the competition of others in this country and elsewhere. The plaintiffs seem to want to get to the front of a long queue, elminating the competition on their side, and then argue for a lower price. Competitive auctions don't work like this.

Before asking for berths to be kept to a price based on the cost plus a an extra bit, everyone is invited to sell me their house on the same basis. In addition, I'll take that boat off your hands for nothing at all - think of all the extra money you'll save.

 

[tcm]

Steady on!... & how \"Cost plus\" killed UK industry

A bit OTT using those examples of criminal behaviour, John. I'm not working for them, but MDL don't sell non-existent berths, steal bits off your boat, or kidnap the wife. They offer a service at a price. It's legal, unlike your examples.

The "cost plus" basis of pricing and doing business, which you extol, came about when the country was at war. The government commanded that manufacturing companies make predetemined products they deemed wer neeeded and paid them on a "cost plus" basis.

Munitions companies did well - they needed no market research and no salesforce at all. They slavishly worked out every single penny they spent including all the overhead costs apportioned to every item.

This mindset continued long after the war and even today there are companies who carefuly work out the cost of everything, and have an "overhead recovery rate" which is added dependent upon how many hours have been worked on a product. They tot this up and add on a very reasonable 7 percent, and that's the price, unless the customer tells them that a smaller number like two or three percent is all they'll pay.

This formulaic structure was at the heart of almsot every manufacturing company after the war and for long after. It is not unreasonable to argue it - and not that the germans were bombed flat or that the japs are weird - was responsible for the demise of British industry.

"Cost plus" ignores demand for a product and simply requires a production plan, orderly queues of customers, and carrying on regardless. It hates the meddlings of new ideas which muck up the plan. It hates salespeople who battle for more customer with odd requirements. It hates marketing types who want the price to be higher or lower, or the production to be faster. Indeed the nation still sees salespeople as spivs, the only salespeople seen by a generation, illegal then and still clearly regarded with suspicion.

Restless workers in the 70's correctly realised that the primary focus of management was to pay as little as possible, simply to beat the stupid stifling numbers that arise from a "cost-plus" mindset. The same policy was responsivble for companies investing as little as possible. So they had low-quality equipment, occasionally renewed by injections of government grants at car plants or electronics companies.

But unfortunately these companies could only employ low-quality people (because of the lousy money) so the better people aimed for different careers and the companies slowly went bust, or were latterly bought up for essentially nothing but the goodwill or brand value.

All through this time, foreign competitors turned up with products based on the price people will pay, sometimes at low or negative profit margins, other times at very high profit margins.

It's all the fault of the man from the ministry, who came to inspect the books and demanded that management "justify" the cost of everything. Exactly what you want MDL to do now.

 

[johna]

Re: totally free market

tcm

I think you are missing the point in some of your replies.

John Watson in his reply to IanPoole2 of 11/01/03 18.21, stated that he could reduce the cost of berthing by a large factor. I and others have asked him to set out his terms and let us have a choice.

Also if you look back at my post referring to cost plus this was made in connection with services for captive berth holders not the berthing charges themselves.

We are still waiting for John Watson to set out his lower cost package.

 

[Joe_Cole]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

"When someone takes their car to a main dealer garage for a service, does the dealer let them bring in their own mechanic to work on it on their premises?"

Sorry, John, but this is a fatuous argument.

Put it in a more sensible context. You park in a car park somewhere and your car packs up so you call out the AA. Won't you then be a bit pi**ed off if Mr NCP comes along and says he wants a share of the loot? Perhaps you'll be happy with that arrangement. I know I wouldn't.

 

[Sybarite]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

I apologise for the circular arguement bit. I got hot under the collar and replied before going further down the thread.

When you are operating with a public concession then it would worry me to be in your position with the strength of feeling that this thread and media correspondance have been raising. You cannot ignore the long term.

I would be interested to know what my Feeling 920 (32') would cost to based on the South Coast ??

 

[bigmart]

Re: totally free market

You are entitled to your opinion.

I, & I suspect most of the other respondees here, totally disagree with you.

If you don't mind being screwed thats your perogative.

Martin

 

[tcm]

Stepped rates, John Watson?

Alright, bluer!

Observer, i believe that the bulk of south coast UK marinas cater for craft big enough go to a tidal sea where F4 prevails, yet small enough to pilot oneself. This means 25-65 feet (ish)

This isn't the case in France and western med coasts: there's a huge local population of tiny little 20foot boats or smaller from which they fish in flat water (in the fog!) and at the other end of the scale there are large private yachts offering ego trips. I mean, offering charters.

On the purchase of long leases, and on annual berths to a less noticeable extent, prices are certainly stepped. I saw a 60m berth for over a million, but 6m berths do not cost £100k - nor even half that.

Dunno if MDL have stepped pricing?

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Re: totally free market

Something else that has not been brought up has surprised me, the fact that marinas have taken away safe anchorages around the country or been a factor in the removal of existing trot or swinging moorings. This in it's own right is causing a kind of monopoly on natures safe spots; and there is nothing the yacht fraternity can do about it.

Julian

http://www.ukstaffords.com

 

[tcm]

Re: aw, Bigmart!

I can see from your bio that you've sailed for years. You love it, and quite right too. Please don't imagine that you're the only one. There are thousands who would love a boat, any boat, anywhere. Aren't they "getting screwed" cos people like us pay the stupid prices of boats?

You want to be in a specific place, and if you can't pay or won't pay, others will. MDL don't have a "monopoly" - there's marinas all along the coast and on the IOW. But you don't want to be there. You don't want to be in the crappy or inaccessible places. But they're cheaper.

I wonder if some of this boiling sentiment is derived from the sailing experience itself. Master of all that one surveys, determinant of the course, the destination, the ship, the contents and even the crew.

Then some git turns up with an invoice and we "decide" against it, as one can with every other aspect of boating.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: totally free market

I'm sure MDL and other marinas could offer a reduced price if they did away with some amenities. Surely this would only work if they built the marina to a basic level in the first place. Once electric supplies, buildings, infrastructure etc are in place they have to be paid for (capital costs, maintenance etc).

A similar principle would apply to labour intensive services. They couldn't have security ignore berths whose users had opted for a lower price package for instance, or not respond to VHF calls from certain vessels who hadn't paid for the service.

I suspect that MDL can't easily offer you a lower price reduced facility package, as nearly every user of the marina would have to accept a lower standard of some form or other, and there are undoubtably users who will happily pay for the highest level.

Having said that, there are probably areas where people could opt in or out of services in the base package. That would almost certainly mean that those services would then become more expensive on the one off occassion you required them, leading to more charges of being ripped off.

Surely there are basic packages still available if that's what you really want. I know people who get cheap swinging moorings in tide restricted areas with no facilities and are quite happy with them

 

[BrendanS]

Re: totally free market

Marinas came into existence because users wanted ease of access and other facilities. Not everyone wants to load a dinghy with all the necessities for a days sailing, with the inconvenience and time spent, finding somewhere close by to safely keep the dinghy (possibly even paying for the privilege), and maintain the dinghy etc etc.

Some bright spark built a marina, people happily paid for the convenience, and yet another business was created.

If the demand is there, and it undoubtably is, people will pay for it.

The other angle is that if marinas did not exist, can you imagine how the very few trot and swinging moorings would be priced? Marinas are a good way of keeping large numbers of boats in a limited space. As has been mentioned before, supply and demand controls everything.

 

[TheBoatman]

Re: MDL and storage charges

A few thoughts?
In my club, we have been lifting out members boats for many years now. It costs around £2000 per day to hire a crane capable of lifting boats up to 10 tons and "jibbing" them out and placing them in their cradles. If the weather is "iffy" and we lose a day then we pay extra for the next day. This year we have been told that the crane company must come down and do a risk assessment (at our cost) before undertaking the lifting. All this is extra to the costs. So this year we (as a club) have decided to buy a boat lifter/transporter and do the work ourselves.
This decision was made against a background of the commercial rates charged by the crane company and local boatyards and the average seems to be in the £120 per lift bracket. So I dont think that MDL are over-charging for lifts and that is matched against a background of H & S. Afterall they have a responsililty for any equipment on their sites. If they (or any contractors) drop your boat, you would be the first to jump up and down.
As far as marina charges go, I would say the same thing as I have said on previous threads, and that is, if I park my car (14 foot long) in a NCP car park I could expect to pay £2 per hour, if I leave it there for 1 year, I can expect to pay NCP £17,520 with no water/electricity or security (after 1 year I'll probably arrive back to find it on blocks with no wheels). How much do MDL charge for a 32' boat for the same time with security/water/electricity/showers and other facilities?
No guys I think John is offering a reasonable service at a reasonable price, he may have to look at his long term customers when they move off to do long term cruising and offer some discount but apart from that I think he's got it about right?
BTW I think that John is showing his wish to help "his customers" by agreeing to come on this forum and answer any questions we may have, he also gives out his personel phone number to all so that we might contact him directly. It shows to me (at least) that he is prepared to face us and listenen to our grievences and try to help us/him come to a reasonable solution.

 

[jwatson]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

Define 'majority' 'facilities' and 'area' and then we'll see if we have a debate on!
You have no arguement that can stand up.

 

[jwatson]

Jimboaw
Your posting appears to promote breaching the terms of residential leases which would affect the enjoyment of other berth holders and residents. The original planning consent for the development of Ocean Village Marina allowed for the construction of car parking and toilet facilities adequate to serve the total number of non residential users (about two thirds of the marina at that time). The assumption made by the planners was that residents of properties with marina berths would have unrestricted access to their own toilet facilities and parking areas. The residential leases state that if properties are rented to tenants, the berths may be let in conjunction with the properties, but not separately due to the additional load that this would impose on the marina facilities and infrastructure.

During the mid 90's MDL carried out a survey of the marina which revealed that over 40% of the residential berths were being sublet separately from the properties to which they belonged. This contravened the terms of the residential leases and was placing considerable strain on the marina car parks and toilet facilities. MDL’s policy was not an "excuse" to force residents to use their own facilities as you have claimed, but as a result of complaints from annual berth holders as well as genuine residents. When MDL as landlord took action against the owners who were subletting their berths, they were simply enforcing planning regulations and the terms stated in the residential leases. Ultimately as landlord if we had let the marina become a ‘free for all’ then one can only assume that everyone would eventually lose out which would affect not only the image of Ocean Village but marina property prices as well.

 

[bigmart]

Re: getting bored with circular arguement

Torbay, the Hamble & the River Itchen side of Southampton spring to mind.

I believe that the only berths available in the Torbay area are administered by MDL. The Hamble has Three out of Five major marinas owned by MDL & the Harbour authorities now seem hell bent on forcing all other berthholders into Marina style berths. The itchen has three out of four facilities owned by MDL.

As I keep saying "Fine I accept the situation" just don't try to say that it is a totally free market that determines prices in these areas. You may be able to pull my argument to pieces by citing minor boatyards/facilities in these areas but you & I both know that there will always be suspicion when this type of situation exists.

I dont blame MDL for working like this I am just amazed if they try to defend it.

Martin

 

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John_N
I apologise for appearing to you as arrogant and condescending. That is something I have never been accused of before and is not my wish in any way whatsoever as life is just too short.
Let's just agree to disagree as I do not think we will ever be on the same page. Thanks for the input anyway. Message received.
Apologies again and have a most enjoyable and safe boating season.
Best wishes,
John

 

[John_N]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John
Many thanks for your latest post to me. I too owe you an apology for getting a little bit heated over this contentious subject. Our beliefs of the ethics of business are obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum and we must agree to differ and respect each other's point of view. I must say that I do admire your courage in standing up to defend your corner in the face of all the hostility to MDL and similar marinas. It's good to know that somebody really listens to complaints even though they might not always be resolved.
If you are ever in the West Country (or Brittany) and see a Sadler 32 with "Blithe Spirit" boldly painted on the bows give me a shout and I'll buy you a beer. It might even be in an MDL marina, but only as a visitor and for the shortest possible time!
Regards, John N

 

[jwatson]

Re: MDL and storage charges

John N
Thanks for your gracious acceptance of my apology. I really mean that.
I truly do not want to fight with customers - existing or potential!!
At the end of the day, I guess the reason we are all passionate about these subjects is because we all love the water and have strong views about use/access/etc. (My earliest memories are of looking out of my bedroom window straight across Oban Bay from ages 0-16.)
Never for one minute thought I'd be in this business I can tell you!
Would have probably stayed in Oban and been a Coastguard (which I was) if I had known what laid in store!
Cheers,
John

 

[Guest]

Re: MDL and storage charges

This thread is getting silly. Surely you must realise that there are heavy costs in purchasing lifting equipment, installing infrastructure, insuring, testing and operating any lifting gear. Personnel now have to be double-trained, and yacht owners are the first to whinge if there is the slightest scuff on their top-sides. I don't like the costs of dealing with marinas or indeed with car main dealers but I can respect the fact that they have operating costs and overheads far beyond the apparent cost of paying a couple of blokes for a few minutes work. Get real!!