Are boat equipment manufacturers taking us for a ride?

[Birdseye]

Over to you folks, what do you reckon?

I dont recognise the situation you describe. To the contrary I struggled to think of something that had broken as opposed to simply worn out. I couldnt thin of anything.

 

[Zing]

Sailing is like all other walks of life and purchases you get what you pay for. Tools are the best example I can think of, you can buy cheap stuff that will do the job once or perhaps a few more times or you can pay more and buy something that will stand reasonable intermittent use or you can pay top whack and buy something that you can use everyday for a lifetime. Sailing and Tool users have the same types of people in them ranging from professionals through those that can afford and like to buy the best to those at the other extreme that will buy the cheapest they can find and expect it to last a lifetime and complain when it doesn't. The expression I use is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Manufacturers will take advantage of them by building stuff down to a price that will perform for a period but not a lifetime nor will it stand the abuse of doing something beyond its meagre design parameters although inevitably people will use a 3 foot extension bar on the end of a cheap spanner and wonder why it bends or the jaws open. Then there are those that will buy a tiller pilot designed for a 26 foot 2 tonne boat and wonder why it gives up the ghost on their 32 foot 5 tonne boat.

There’s something in that in general, but it doesn’t explain my marine failures, or what I have observed in other people’s boats. My equipment list is all top end. Reckman, North, Lewmar, Navtec, B&G, Raymarine, Onan, Perkins, Miele, etc. All broken multiple times. I think the marine environment is so especially nasty that a quantum jump in quality or design is needed to give totally reliable gear.

Even with the best conceivable design and quality of manufacture an elevated maintenance regime is needed compared to land based equipment.

 

[Kukri]

I think the marine environment is so especially nasty that a quantum jump in quality or design is needed to give totally reliable gear.

That is certainly what people used to think.

Even with the best conceivable design and quality of manufacture an elevated maintenance regime is needed compared to land based equipment.

Yes.

 

[NormanS]

Boat builders, and suppliers of marine equipment get away with shoddy practices and goods, because the vast majority of privately owned yachts are used very little. If your boat is going to get a lot of use, YOU have to ensure that it is properly built, engineered, equipped, and maintained to the appropriate standard.

 

[Resolution]

Boat builders, and suppliers of marine equipment get away with shoddy practices and goods, because the vast majority of privately owned yachts are used very little. If your boat is going to get a lot of use, YOU have to ensure that it is properly built, engineered, equipped, and maintained to the appropriate standard.

Certainly true that in this country most boats are used infrequently. It can be argued that this is in itself one of the reliability problems, lack of use combining with lack of maintenance and a tough environment to equal dangerous neglect. Particularly on the electrics side, this has to be the cause of many failures.

Back to your first sentence, can you give us some examples of practices or goods that you consider "shoddy"?
Peter

 

[NormanS]

Certainly true that in this country most boats are used infrequently. It can be argued that this is in itself one of the reliability problems, lack of use combining with lack of maintenance and a tough environment to equal dangerous neglect. Particularly on the electrics side, this has to be the cause of many failures.

Back to your first sentence, can you give us some examples of practices or goods that you consider "shoddy"?
Peter

Yes, I'll give you one example. It used to be that packing glands were rigidly attached to the stern tube. This meant that the engine had to be accurately lined up to the propeller shaft coupling. This takes time, and some skill, and involves fitting shims under the engine feet. Down the line, there came a demand (justified or otherwise) to mount engines on rubber mounts to deaden vibration. If the engine is going to move around on its rubber mountings, it cannot be bolted to a rigid prop shaft.

The best engineering method involves having a rubber mounted engine fitted with a flexible drive to a thrust bearing, with the prop shaft coupled to the thrust bearing. This allows the stuffing box or patent seal to be mechanically fixed to the stern tube. It ensures that thrust, in both directions is transferred directly to the hull. It means that neither the prop shaft, nor the engine moves back and forward, when engaging ahead or astern. It means that the rubber mounts are not subjected to fore and aft thrust.

Boat builders know that a large proportion of boats probably use their engines for less than (say) 50 hours per year, so what do they do? They attach the stuffing box to the stern tube with a bit of rubber hose and jubilee clips, don't have to bother lining up the engine, and allow the rubber mounts to take the propeller thrust in both directions. It's a cheap solution, and to be fair, if the boat is only going to have very light use, it's probably adequate.

Beware however, if you have a boat that was built to the cheap standard, but you want to use it extensively, you may find that things don't last as well as you might have expected.

 

[Bobc]

I think that the problem extends way past boat bits, and really extends to pretty-much all products in all walks of life. White goods and TVs only last 5 years now, whereas they used to last for 20. The difference is that you don't mind the washing machine or tv breaking after 5 years, because you can get a new one for £300. Boating gear is a lot more expensive because of the low volumes produced, and the need to recoup the development and tooling costs over a much smaller volume run.

Another endemic problem in the manufacturing world is that these companies are now run by accountants, rather than engineers, so they are constantly trying to squeeze the last penny of margin out.

There is however yet another important factor at play here, as stated above. The world these days seems to buy based on price rather than lifetime value. So the manufacturers squeeze their base prices right down to the bone in order to be competitive (which means compromising on quality and longevity), but then make their money back on after-sales and replacements.

A good example of this IMHO is Volvo Penta, who's engines are factory fitted by most of the big boat builders. They have worked out that it's worth their while selling the engines at cost to the builders in order to get volume of product (which reduces their dev and tooling amortisation per unit), and also gets a lot of units out there which will need servicing and repairing, which is where they (and their dealer network) make their real money. Have you seen the price of VP parts? It's the same as Michelin, who provide tyres to car manufacturers at rock-bottom prices, on the basis that the car owner will replace with the same when they wear out.

 

[asteven221]

I dont recognise the situation you describe. To the contrary I struggled to think of something that had broken as opposed to simply worn out. I couldnt thin of anything.

Well if boat kit was designed better for its intended purpose and its intended lifespan (actually maybe they do design for their intended lifespan i.e. a short one) in the intended conditions that the kit will live its life, the kit wouldn't wear out - or at least not for a very, very long time!!

 

[Kukri]

I think that the problem extends way past boat bits, and really extends to pretty-much all products in all walks of life. White goods and TVs only last 5 years now, whereas they used to last for 20. The difference is that you don't mind the washing machine or tv breaking after 5 years, because you can get a new one for £300. Boating gear is a lot more expensive because of the low volumes produced, and the need to recoup the development and tooling costs over a much smaller volume run.

Another endemic problem in the manufacturing world is that these companies are now run by accountants, rather than engineers, so they are constantly trying to squeeze the last penny of margin out.

There is however yet another important factor at play here, as stated above. The world these days seems to buy based on price rather than lifetime value. So the manufacturers squeeze their base prices right down to the bone in order to be competitive (which means compromising on quality and longevity), but then make their money back on after-sales and replacements.

A good example of this IMHO is Volvo Penta, who's engines are factory fitted by most of the big boat builders. They have worked out that it's worth their while selling the engines at cost to the builders in order to get volume of product (which reduces their dev and tooling amortisation per unit), and also gets a lot of units out there which will need servicing and repairing, which is where they (and their dealer network) make their real money. Have you seen the price of VP parts? It's the same as Michelin, who provide tyres to car manufacturers at rock-bottom prices, on the basis that the car owner will replace with the same when they wear out.

Should you choose to build a merchant ship, you will find that the oil companies will fall over themselves to give you the oil for the main engine crankcase and for the cylinders (cylinder oil is expended but some of it may fall into the sump...) and the oil for the generators for free. From then on, it's not free and it's not compatible...

I took a couple of compasses to Barry Philips and he mentioned that the reason Sestrel went out of business was not that everyone bought cheap and cheerful Plastimo compasses but that all the steering pedestal makers were giving the compass away with the steering gear...

 

[pvb]

A good example of this IMHO is Volvo Penta, who's engines are factory fitted by most of the big boat builders. They have worked out that it's worth their while selling the engines at cost to the builders in order to get volume of product (which reduces their dev and tooling amortisation per unit), and also gets a lot of units out there which will need servicing and repairing, which is where they (and their dealer network) make their real money. Have you seen the price of VP parts? It's the same as Michelin, who provide tyres to car manufacturers at rock-bottom prices, on the basis that the car owner will replace with the same when they wear out.

Criticising Volvo Penta parts pricing is a popular sport on these forums, but nobody ever stops for a moment to consider the real costs of stocking parts for 20 or 30 year old engines. And not just stocking them in one warehouse somewhere in the world, but getting dealers all over the world to carry stocks. As a result, if your VP-engined boat needs a part, you should be able to get hold of it quickly, wherever you happen to be. That sort of support costs money.

 

[dom]

I think that the problem extends way past boat bits, and really extends to pretty-much all products in all walks of life. White goods and TVs only last 5 years now, whereas they used to last for 20. The difference is that you don't mind the washing machine or tv breaking after 5 years, because you can get a new one for £300. Boating gear is a lot more expensive because of the low volumes produced, and the need to recoup the development and tooling costs over a much smaller volume run.

Another endemic problem in the manufacturing world is that these companies are now run by accountants, rather than engineers, so they are constantly trying to squeeze the last penny of margin out.

There is however yet another important factor at play here, as stated above. The world these days seems to buy based on price rather than lifetime value. So the manufacturers squeeze their base prices right down to the bone in order to be competitive (which means compromising on quality and longevity), but then make their money back on after-sales and replacements.

One does hear these criticisms, yet I like many here am happy with the average longevity of boaty kit: Marlow running rigging, Harken blocks and tracks, Lewmar travelers, Spade anchors, Incidence, North, and Elvstrom sails, Raymarine, Furuno, Simrad, B&G electronics, even my humble Polyform fenders that spend months getting squished and scraped!

Turning to home equipment: Siemens/Sony/Samsung/Miele ovens, dishwashers, coffee machines, washing machines, dryers, tvs, etc. all cost a bit more, all are about 8 years old and all are working just fine. Most of it is on an annual maintenance contract to replace washing machine belts etc, but all is working fine.

By contrast numerous Morphy Richards and other cheapo £40 microwaves have conked out, as have almost all of the cheapo Wilkinsons finest blenders, smoothie makers, Teflon pans, and kitchen utensils I buy the children for university. Whereas the Le Creuset pots and pans dating from my childhood are going strong.

There definitely seems to be some element of you pays your money and takes your chances going on here?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

One does hear these criticisms, yet I like many here am happy with the average longevity of boaty kit: Marlow running rigging, Harken blocks and tracks, Lewmar travelers, Spade anchors, Incidence, North, and Elvstrom sails, Raymarine, Furuno, Simrad, B&G electronics, even my humble Polyform fenders that spend months getting squished and scraped!

Turning to home equipment: Siemens/Sony/Samsung/Miele ovens, dishwashers, coffee machines, washing machines, dryers, tvs, etc. all cost a bit more, all are about 8 years old and all are working just fine. Most of it is on an annual maintenance contract to replace washing machine belts etc, but all is working fine.

By contrast numerous Morphy Richards and other cheapo £40 microwaves have conked out, as have almost all of the cheapo Wilkinsons finest blenders, smoothie makers, Teflon pans, and kitchen utensils I buy the children for university. Whereas the Le Creuset pots and pans dating from my childhood are going strong.

There definitely seems to be some element of you pays your money and takes your chances going on here?

The boat kit you describe is in the top quartile of manufacturers whereas the Morphy Richards and cheap microwaves are in the bottom quartile of domestic suppliers I would equate them with the likes of Plastimo and the like. The clue is in the first few letters Plasti(c)

 

[Mataji]

It’s not just equipment manufacturers that take us for a ride. I’ve just asked a marina (in Devon) for a quote to service a Yanmar 2YM Diesel engine in my boat. £550. That really is taking the p.

 

[dom]

It’s not just equipment manufacturers that take us for a ride. I’ve just asked a marina (in Devon) for a quote to service a Yanmar 2YM Diesel engine in my boat. £550. That really is taking the p.

Helicopter-only access

 

[Daydream believer]

I think that the problem extends way past boat bits, and really extends to pretty-much all products in all walks of life. White goods and TVs only last 5 years now, whereas they used to last for 20. The difference is that you don't mind the washing machine or tv breaking after 5 years, because you can get a new one for £300. .

You speak for yourself!!!!!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It’s not just equipment manufacturers that take us for a ride. I’ve just asked a marina (in Devon) for a quote to service a Yanmar 2YM Diesel engine in my boat. £550. That really is taking the p.

I agree even a comprehensive service is only 2Hrs work plus travel so including consumables should not be more than £200. Which is why you should be doing it yourself.

 

[jdc]

...The best engineering method involves having a rubber mounted engine fitted with a flexible drive to a thrust bearing, with the prop shaft coupled to the thrust bearing. This allows the stuffing box or patent seal to be mechanically fixed to the stern tube. It ensures that thrust, in both directions is transferred directly to the hull. It means that neither the prop shaft, nor the engine moves back and forward, when engaging ahead or astern. It means that the rubber mounts are not subjected to fore and aft thrust.

You've neatly described the system on my boat (UK built 14 years ago). It's not broken yet and I do quite a few engine hours (circa 250 a year, and some years 400+). I've done 50k miles over 14 years. Almost nothing has broken. In fact so little that I can list the individual items from memory:

- Ebberspacher. But that was an installation fault; the combustion air intake got some salt water into it.
- Generator exhaust temperature sensor. Easy to bypass, easy to replace., only happened once in contrast to my Toyota car where the O2 sensors fail regularly.
- Generator stop solenoid valve. Easy enough to replace.
- Force 10 cooker bars came loose. Brazed them back.
- Windlass. SL sprint. A really good internal gearbox design let down by a dreadful electric motors. On it's 4th one now.
- Furlex 300. Not exactly broken, but the foil has slipped a couple of times. Now fixed hopefully (re-tapped holes and use loktite). Almost certainly the rigger's fault rather than the equipment manufacturer; at least the problem has gone away since I started to service it entirely myself.
- A bearing in the Mamba pedestal steering got sea water into it and needed replacing.
- Float valve in one grey water tank has packed up
- Mastervolt battery monitor panel is very moisture sensitive and needed replacing.

Overall not perfect but pretty good really. Only the Ebberpacher and Mastervolt panel needed replacing, everything else just fixing with readily available spares and was a possible DIY job. In particular I want to praise the Raymarine kit, especially the 6000 autohelm which has been 100% reliable and done most of the steering over the 50k miles. Hood sails excellent, Beta engine ditto.

If I am to criticise the design of anything it is the Lewmar hatches. The design is such that one has to compress rubber seals to some poorly determined amount. This is poor practice: good seals are always made so that metal-metal contact determines the exact degree of compression of the rubber bit (think O rings in a groove - the groove sizes and the rubber thickness are very precisely specified). It means the hatches dribble a bit if green water is coming across the deck. But despite this it's better than it was 30 years ago!

So I don't really agree with the OP. Modern boats are complex things and need preventative maintenance. It's all been v reliable compared to any land-based central heating system I've had. The one thing I hate is powder-coated Aluminium which, imho, isn't fit for purpose anywhere, especially not on a boat. Fortunately I've not got a lot of it (cabin window fames: grrr).

 

[asteven221]

Reads like quite a lot of faults to me for "almost nothing broken". 9 x manufactures if my arithmetic is correct selling kit that's failed in some way. Not too bad right enough for 14 years assuming all the kit's original to the boat.

I agree that boats are complex things. I am very aware of that as I am invariably fixing/replacing/upgrading stuff on mine! My original post was just me putting forward an observation after reading numerous magazine articles and viewing many You Tube cruising vlogs, which had the consistent theme of equipment needing fixed/replaced, or disasters as a result of failed equipment. The owner/skipper/crew always seem to be spending more time and money dealing with failed equipment than enjoying their sailing.

Like all of us, I just accept that is just part of what our pastime is all about. We buy a boat, bits break and we spend a small fortune fixing them. It's always been that way. But I wondered why is that? Looking a little closer it seemed to me that most of the faults could be attributed to poor design and/or manufacture. My original post was really to start a discussion (as it is a forum after all) to see if others agreed or not. Maybe another way to look at it, is manufacturers are very clever and have engineered their kit to fail reliably within an acceptable time frame. Indeed from the replies on this thread it appears they are doing a good job, as the majority seem very happy with the reliability and longevity of their boats equipment.

Your Mastervolt panel is quite a good example of what I am talking about. You said it needed replaced as it's "very moisture sensitive". Well I would say heeeelllooooo Mastervolt, it's a boat, so there is likely to be some moisture about the place. Could you not design your panel to deal with it! Is it really beyond the wit of your design team to design and build a panel that is 100% impervious to moisture? No I am sure it's not. And it's not just Mastervolt, as numerous expensive electrical items sold for installation on a boat are not designed with the basic requirement of keeping moisture out. Why on earth would anyone purposely design and manufacture electrical or electronic kit for a boat without making sure moisture won't cause any problems?

 

[michael_w]

How's this for longevity? I'm using the saucepans given to my mother as wedding presents 70 years ago.

 

[Resolution]

How's this for longevity? I'm using the saucepans given to my mother as wedding presents 70 years ago.

Michael
I am still using the brain given to me by my mother 70 years ago.

Mind you, some of my pals say it was faulty from the start and should have been returned under warranty
Peter