Are boat equipment manufacturers taking us for a ride?

[Kukri]

It is also said that there is always someone who will make something a little worse, a little cheaper. In this sport, we often find that the people who originally made a widget that worked very well and which went on working for decades found a way to make their own product a little worse, a little cheaper.

I mentioned Sestrel compasses. Lead washer replaced by rubber washer... guess what...?

Gibb lifeline hooks - drop forged hook replaced by stainless steel stamping... guess what..,?

 

[Resolution]

It would be interesting to know the approx age of the OP. For the many of us on this forum who are of more advanced ages, we grew up in the post war years with crappy clapped out cars or motor cycles where reliability was a negative function. Fix-it skills were essential. Today the car world has moved on so far that we get annoyed if anything breaks. But cars are built in vast numbers with relatively few variations, so enormous amounts are spent on design and component testing, before creating robots to do the actual building work, exactly the same each time.
The yacht world is so much smaller, design and production techniques are probably equivalent to forty years ago in the car world. But I would suggest even in the yacht world we are far far better now than we were fifty years ago as regards reliability. It is just that the customers' expectations have moved on as well!
Peter

 

[steveeasy]

Do engine peripherals, gearboxes and sterngear really "fall apart regularly"? Not in most people's experience.

Are marine toilets really useless? There are service parts (rubber seals and valves) which need replacing from time to time, otherwise they're fairly robust.

Only the other day I bought a new hinge kit for the Jabasco toilet seat. must be 20 years old. the kit fitted perfectly and will last another 20 plus years. Less than a Tenner. I was just impressed that the quality and design, It was far better than the rubbish we get for homes.

Steveeasy

 

[Resolution]

Only the other day I bought a new hinge kit for the Jabasco toilet seat. must be 20 years old. the kit fitted perfectly and will last another 20 plus years. Less than a Tenner. I was just impressed that the quality and design, It was far better than the rubbish we get for homes.

Steveeasy

Great value, aren't they? After a very large crew took Resolution's seat for a slide in heavy weather off Sardinia, I was delighted to track down a chandler who had a stock of the correct hinge kits. I was so pleased that I bought two sets, keeping one for spare. If you are confident in your twenty years I may have wasted a tenner.

 

[mainsail1]

I have had my boat for 21 years from new and my experience has been that most kit on my boat has been reliable. The only really useless piece of kit has been the various Raymarine auto helms. And ,unbelievably, the hand held microphone cable on the 10 year old fixed VHF has fallen to pieces. Never seen that before.

 

[johnalison]

Going through your list

Fresh water accumulator almost certainly the diaphragm which in common with domestic hot water systems is prone to failure, not a problem uniquely marine. Poxy 12 volt immersion heaters I think it is pot luck the 240V ones seem a little better but again pot luck, I never had a problem. pressure pump, diaphragm again not unusual in such pumps. piping always down to poor installation.
Webasto and Ebberspacher I have some sympathy here I inherited an old Mikuni which was crap but my self installed Ebber. worked flawlessly, I think much is down to how they are used and serviced, they do need the occasional "decoke" which seems beyond many of the marine bodgers. Failure to maintain leads to other problems.
Sprayhood and covers, we expect an awful lot from them but a well made one removed during the winter will last a long time.
Can't comment on your radio wiring but I suspect down to poor installation.
Lewmar clutches, plastics inevitably discolour due to UV but I don't think that affects their serviceability the rust stains are down to accountants penny-pinching on the construction materials but easily remedied and again doesn't affect serviceability.
Plastic clips Say no more.

Vagaries of space led me to being over-concise perhaps.
The immersion heater is 240v
The piping is correctly installed but the (correct) rubber at the hot manifold hardens with time.
We try to run the Webasto as recommended, always starting at maximum and giving it a longer blast occasionally. Apparently (Lounge qv) we are not allowed to bodge but must botch and my medical skills such as they are don't seem to be of any help.
The radio wiring is due to the covering disintegrating in spite of being inside and out of UV. Skanti, not an HR fitting.
I've no idea how to remedy the discoloured clutches since anti-rust treatment or abrasion hasn't helped.

 

[mjcoon]

I had a 24v 50 amp Mastervolt battery charger which needed fixing. Mastervolt agreed to do this and I paid in advance - fixed price repair. All was confimed by the boss in Holland and the engineer in England. Nothing heard for weeks, phoned the English guy, oh sorry company policy is not to repair anything over 5 years old! we are scrapping your unit WHAT??
after 2 phone calls and taking my money!

That reads like breach of contract to me. Quick, sue before Brexit!

Mike.

 

[zoidberg]

I would expect that most parts should last for a substantial part of the life of the boat, say 40 years.

You've got me worried now. The boat I'm refurb'ing for my dotage is that or more.

I'm not far off twice that......

 

[Daydream believer]

I think you are right. It’s definitely a post 70’s thing. I am just taking a break from pounding on a seacock with a mallet. Been doing it for several hours accompanied by periods of intense heat. Looking a bit charred but still perfectly funtional after which i will service and replace it. Try and do THAT with your fancy modern chartplotters pah!

Why would you want to pound on your chart plotter with a mallet. Have you read the instruction manual yet?
Learn how to use it properly or go on an anger management course.

 

[KellysEye]

The problem is all boat kit, except anything electrical, is made for weekend and holiday sailors. Long distance sailing I spent over a day a week servicing or replacing something broken. I carried two spare parts for everything, exploded diagrams a whole range of the tools needed. I laid the parts out in a line when something stopped working so I was certain how too put it back together. If you want something that doesn't break our boat was fitted with an industrial water maker and fridge. The longest I went without fixing something was a month in the Venezuelan out islands arrived in Bonaire and three thing broke the next day.

 

[dom]

Okay, so hulls and engines have got better. What does that leave?

Reliable, non-fogging GPS-based instruments with way more functionality, better lighter APs, high-modulus sails consigning the pregnant-elephant cut to history, Dyneema running rigging, open-race torlon ball blocks and furlers that don't seize up, waterproofs that actually keep one warm and dry, heaters that heat, stronger and lighter masts, compact and powerful windlasses, anchors that stick not plough, Epirbs to keep us safe, push button sat phones instead of those twiddly SSB contraptions, alternators that actually charge, LCD lamps, solar panels........................

If one thinks about it, it's amazing how how little breaks every year.

Well done manufacturers!

 

[Daydream believer]

Personally, I think (& it has been mentioned already), is the autopilot. At least in the lower end of the market. I upgraded to the AV100 & that is still not much good. Simple things, like keeping the water out, seem to be totally ignored by manufacturers, who continually deny the problem exists.

I accept that if I went to the type used in, say, the figaros, I would get an excellent product (some figaro sailors may disagree!) but when I inquired I found that I was looking at £ 10K plus. Even then I am not so sure I would have a solution.So I stick with my "old technology" Aeries as a "fall back" in emergency; which seems to be more often than not.

 

[Frank Holden]

Why would you want to pound on your chart plotter with a mallet. Have you read the instruction manual yet?
Learn how to use it properly or go on an anger management course.

Would that be the 272 page instruction manual with 2 pages in English that gives instructions for fault codes 10 to 15... and for faults 16 to 190 suggests you speak to your local dealer?

That would be the Eberspacher manual.....

 

[Biggles Wader]

Okay, so hulls and engines have got better. What does that leave?

Reliable, non-fogging GPS-based instruments with way more functionality, better lighter APs, high-modulus sails consigning the pregnant-elephant cut to history, Dyneema running rigging, open-race torlon ball blocks and furlers that don't seize up, waterproofs that actually keep one warm and dry, heaters that heat, stronger and lighter masts, compact and powerful windlasses, anchors that stick not plough, Epirbs to keep us safe, push button sat phones instead of those twiddly SSB contraptions, alternators that actually charge, LCD lamps, solar panels........................

If one thinks about it, it's amazing how how little breaks every year.

Well done manufacturers!

Yeah but apart from all that,--------What have the manufacturers ever done for us?
I see no aquaduct.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Personally, I think (& it has been mentioned already), is the autopilot. At least in the lower end of the market. I upgraded to the AV100 & that is still not much good. Simple things, like keeping the water out, seem to be totally ignored by manufacturers, who continually deny the problem exists.

I accept that if I went to the type used in, say, the figaros, I would get an excellent product (some figaro sailors may disagree!) but when I inquired I found that I was looking at £ 10K plus. Even then I am not so sure I would have a solution.So I stick with my "old technology" Aeries as a "fall back" in emergency; which seems to be more often than not.

The question of autopilots has already been addressed in so much as it is a quality vs price option, you answered your own question and effective tiller pilot because there are plenty of effective underdeck autopilots costs more than the public are prepared to pay. So they use low cost options and worse underspeced ones that are asked to do more than they were designed to.

 

[dom]

Personally, I think (& it has been mentioned already), is the autopilot. At least in the lower end of the market. I upgraded to the AV100 & that is still not much good. Simple things, like keeping the water out, seem to be totally ignored by manufacturers, who continually deny the problem exists.

I accept that if I went to the type used in, say, the figaros, I would get an excellent product (some figaro sailors may disagree!) but when I inquired I found that I was looking at £ 10K plus. Even then I am not so sure I would have a solution.So I stick with my "old technology" Aeries as a "fall back" in emergency; which seems to be more often than not.

You don't mean an EV100 per chance?

Incidentally, the NKE stuff you refer to will certainly work, but it is intentionally tweaky,the software is optimised to specific types of vessel and it can be overkill for cruising environments.

 

[michael_w]

For the size of boats we sail most of the equipment is rated on a 'leisure' or 'light duty' cycle; as a result, it falls apart. Once you get up to commercial fishing boat size stuff it's more robust.

 

[thinwater]

What is the average age of our boats? 20 years? 30 years? What about an old house? I assure you, stuff breaks on 20-year old automobiles... though it has gotten better. Also, try servicing a modern car if you don't really keep up with the art.

Smaller production volumes also result in less experience.

But overall, I've had some pretty reliable boats. If I had refit them every 15 years, I bet they would have been darn good.

 

[Kukri]

I think that with yacht equipment you get what you pay for, and very often the price difference is large.

I have a Sestrel handbearing compass that I bought for £27 in 1973. I took it along to BPSC for a service and a new Tritium capsule for which I paid £120 and was told that a new one would cost me four figures. But it is an excellent bit of kit. I have come to the rule that either I buy the best or I do without it. Harken, Wichard, etc.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think that with yacht equipment you get what you pay for, and very often the price difference is large.

I have a Sestrel handbearing compass that I bought for £27 in 1973. I took it along to BPSC for a service and a new Tritium capsule for which I paid £120 and was told that a new one would cost me four figures. But it is an excellent bit of kit. I have come to the rule that either I buy the best or I do without it. Harken, Wichard, etc.

A sound policy, it works in all aspects of life and it is one I have used for most of mine.