Are boat equipment manufacturers taking us for a ride?

[Daydream believer]

I think that with yacht equipment you get what you pay for, and very often the price difference is large.

I have a Sestrel handbearing compass that I bought for £27 in 1973. .

Mine was a 21st birthday prezzie in 1968 & I love it. In the winter it is lovingly stored in its nice teak case & in the sailing season it sits in its rubber holder on the bulkhead ready to use. Perfect bit of kit, as is my Sestral grid steering compass which I still use to this day.
Would not be without either.

 

[pvb]

A sound policy, it works in all aspects of life and it is one I have used for most of mine.

I also like to buy good-quality equipment, and get a long life from it. But there are some drawbacks. You get attached to decent kit and, because it was expensive, want to keep it for perhaps a longer period than you should. I have a superb pair of Steiner Commander 7x50 binoculars, bought in the early 80s from Telesonic Marine in the Brunswick Centre (remember them?). They are lovely, and work flawlessly, but I can't help thinking that if they weren't so precious I might have bought some image-stabilising binoculars by now.

 

[Daydream believer]

The question of autopilots has already been addressed in so much as it is a quality vs price option, you answered your own question and effective tiller pilot because there are plenty of effective underdeck autopilots costs more than the public are prepared to pay. So they use low cost options and worse underspeced ones that are asked to do more than they were designed to.

I do not accept that argument. My autopilots were all supposed to be capable of steering a boat of the size of mine. there is no reason that it should get water in it. That is just poor manufacture & inspection. Raymarine ( as an example) are well aware of the problem -which they deny exists - this makes it even worse. I do not except that it would cost the earth to solve the issues that so many owners have described.
We are being ripped off.

My friend has a wind generator & like a number of others he complained that the bearings had failed.( causing a racket) Having returned it twice & been overcharged for replacement he researched the problem. he found from the bearing manufacturers that the bearing was the wrong one. He pointed this out to a senior manager. He was treated with utter disdain ( edging on total rudeness) & told that they have never had a problem. (Several on this forum have had the same bearing failure so that was untrue)I helped him strip the unit after the third bearing failure. We fitted the correct bearings (waterproof shielding as recommended) & the unit is extremely quiet & has now run perfectly
That costs virtually no more but demonstrates poor production.
We are being ripped off
Going back to autopilots - The EV 100 was useless for 3 years (infact I would say" dangerous") then improved AFTER I paid £ 280-00 for a software upgrade. So the thing was wrong to start with. But I still had to pay to have it ( partially) corrected. Still carp though
I was being ripped off

 

[Resolution]

We are being ripped off.


We are being ripped off

I was being ripped off

Caveat emptor.
My Dad used to say that a fool and his money are easily parted. (Actually he was far too gentlemanly to say that , but some "wise" persons have said it.)
Do your research before you buy, and if high quality / performance is required, be prepared to pay an appropriate sum for it.
Peter

PS This has come out a bit harsher than I meant it to, but sometimes truth hurts.

 

[Kukri]

I also like to buy good-quality equipment, and get a long life from it. But there are some drawbacks. You get attached to decent kit and, because it was expensive, want to keep it for perhaps a longer period than you should. I have a superb pair of Steiner Commander 7x50 binoculars, bought in the early 80s from Telesonic Marine in the Brunswick Centre (remember them?). They are lovely, and work flawlessly, but I can't help thinking that if they weren't so precious I might have bought some image-stabilising binoculars by now.

Snap! Zeiss 7x50 “B”.

 

[dom]

I do not accept that argument. My autopilots were all supposed to be capable of steering a boat of the size of mine. there is no reason that it should get water in it. That is just poor manufacture & inspection. Raymarine ( as an example) are well aware of the problem -which they deny exists - this makes it even worse. I do not except that it would cost the earth to solve the issues that so many owners have described.
We are being ripped off.

My friend has a wind generator & like a number of others he complained that the bearings had failed.( causing a racket) Having returned it twice & been overcharged for replacement he researched the problem. he found from the bearing manufacturers that the bearing was the wrong one. He pointed this out to a senior manager. He was treated with utter disdain ( edging on total rudeness) & told that they have never had a problem. (Several on this forum have had the same bearing failure so that was untrue)I helped him strip the unit after the third bearing failure. We fitted the correct bearings (waterproof shielding as recommended) & the unit is extremely quiet & has now run perfectly
That costs virtually no more but demonstrates poor production.
We are being ripped off
Going back to autopilots - The EV 100 was useless for 3 years (infact I would say" dangerous") then improved AFTER I paid £ 280-00 for a software upgrade. So the thing was wrong to start with. But I still had to pay to have it ( partially) corrected. Still carp though
I was being ripped off

Ah, I did ask earlier if it was an EV100.

£280 for a software update? I’ve never paid a bean to Raymarine for s/w updates before. Also there’s a 3 Yr guarantee for accredited installations. Not to ignore the fact that some offshore racers use the EV system as an effective if not cutting edge AP, which of course cost ££££s more.

Something seems amiss here.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I do not accept that argument. My autopilots were all supposed to be capable of steering a boat of the size of mine. there is no reason that it should get water in it. That is just poor manufacture & inspection. Raymarine ( as an example) are well aware of the problem -which they deny exists - this makes it even worse. I do not except that it would cost the earth to solve the issues that so many owners have described.
We are being ripped off.

My friend has a wind generator & like a number of others he complained that the bearings had failed.( causing a racket) Having returned it twice & been overcharged for replacement he researched the problem. he found from the bearing manufacturers that the bearing was the wrong one. He pointed this out to a senior manager. He was treated with utter disdain ( edging on total rudeness) & told that they have never had a problem. (Several on this forum have had the same bearing failure so that was untrue)I helped him strip the unit after the third bearing failure. We fitted the correct bearings (waterproof shielding as recommended) & the unit is extremely quiet & has now run perfectly
That costs virtually no more but demonstrates poor production.
We are being ripped off
Going back to autopilots - The EV 100 was useless for 3 years (infact I would say" dangerous") then improved AFTER I paid £ 280-00 for a software upgrade. So the thing was wrong to start with. But I still had to pay to have it ( partially) corrected. Still carp though
I was being ripped off

Is it a wheel pilot or tiller pilot installation? I have never been a fan of wheel pilots as they are an attempt to satisfy on the cheap an autopilot for a yacht with a wheel, the only satisfactory solution is an under deck installation which costs several times the price. So the adage pointed out earlier of Price, quality or speed of manufacture comes into play and you are sacrificing quality for price. Tiller pilots suffer similar problems my old Vancouver 27 was only happy when I upgraded the tiller pilot to a GP 4000, it then had sufficient oomph to deal with the boat and my laziness in not continually trimming the sails.
I will give you your turbine problems but many function well, perhaps as you say it is poor quality bearings or poor quality control of the bearings. You would be surprised at how much the gem can buy bearings for in comparison to the individual. Then again there are other factors that influence bearing life poorly balanced vanes, and turbines left to idle when not in use, much better to arrange a method of securing them be it electrical or a piece of cord. I have had two an Air X which despite adverse comments performed flawlessly for me and a rutland which was really not up to the requirements although functioned OK. All self installed. On reflection the Rutland replaced one that was shite that came with the boat but I can't remember its name, perhaps AirGen or something similar.

 

[scotty123]

Caveat emptor.
My Dad used to say that a fool and his money are easily parted. (Actually he was far too gentlemanly to say that , but some "wise" persons have said it.)
Do your research before you buy, and if high quality / performance is required, be prepared to pay an appropriate sum for it.
Peter

PS This has come out a bit harsher than I meant it to, but sometimes truth hurts.

Does price always equal good value?

 

[pvb]

Does price always equal good value?

No.

 

[Zing]

Boats fall apart. Almost everything imaginable has broken on my boat and many things have repeatedly broken the same way. Pumps and bilge switches as prime examples. It would be easier to list the things that haven’t broken:

1. The fibreglass hull.
2. The lead keel.
3. Most internal furniture.
4. The sinks and toilet bowls.
5. The main, but not the reserve anchor.

That’s it. Everything else has broken. It’s not an exaggeration. Absolutely everything breaks and yes we are being taken for a ride. It should be possible to do much, much better.

 

[johnalison]

Snap! Zeiss 7x50 “B”.

Not me. The only thing that I bought from Telesonic was a multiband radio with an aerial on top that you could twiddle round and use as an RDF. It was made by Hitachi and cost £19, or maybe £19.99. It was sort of OK as a radio, and if you tried hard with the LW you might even find Europe.

 

[rotrax]

Boats fall apart. Almost everything imaginable has broken on my boat and many things have repeatedly broken the same way. Pumps and bilge switches as prime examples. It would be easier to list the things that haven’t broken:

1. The fibreglass hull.
2. The lead keel.
3. Most internal furniture.
4. The sinks and toilet bowls.
5. The main, but not the reserve anchor.

That’s it. Everything else has broken. It’s not an exaggeration. Absolutely everything breaks and yes we are being taken for a ride. It should be possible to do much, much better.

Well, you have been unfortunate.

I have two boats, an almost ten year old Island Packet motorsailer and a 34 year old steel Hartley 32 which was home built.

The IP has covered 0ver 5000 NM's in my ownership, we have lived aboard for at least five months each year. It was very neglected when we got it-it was the only one on the market we could afford.

I have replaced the sink tap-50 quid from a chandler, 14 quid for the same thing online-its a domestic one. I also replaced the rear cockpit shower head-it had been frozen and had split lengthwise. All other replacements were changing time expired bits or normal maintenance or modification/improvements.

There have been no major items that have worn out, stopped working or have failed.

The Hartley was cheap. £4250.00 with all its kit-liferaft, epirb, inflatable dinghy, outboard, lifejackets and harnesses.

I have had to strip and rebuild the engine after it got seawater in and siezed up. Apart from a couple of gaskets all the bits went back in after tickling the valves and seats and freeing up the jammed rings. It now starts and runs perfectly.

The rest of the vessels parts have been reliable, considering their age and hard use. Only the TCM electric toilet has been troublesome, now rectified by a stricter regime when leaving the boat for 8 months each year when we return to the UK. The plotter and fishfinder/depth gauge on the Hartley are really old school. I suspect the GPS arial is U/S, as it has started playing up. The fact that the multi pin connectors had been left under the doghouse and had been wet before the purchase is no doubt contributory.

So, all in all, I am quite happy with the kit on both vessels.

 

[Resolution]

Does price always equal good value?

Not always, but if lots of experienced buyers are prepared to pay more for one particular brand, there is probably a good reason! Summed up neatly by a comment in a website recommended today by VicS on thread sizes:

DO: Use high quality tools, they will cost less in the long run since they should last longer and lead to less chance of damage or injury. You need not always buy the most expensive choice, but if your tools set costs much the same as a child's toy, what do you expect?

Peter

 

[rotrax]

Just noticed on the Jean Socrates thread that her OE mainsail has just started to fail after 2.5 plus circumnavigations.

I think that is quite astounding! Nearly 3 times around the world on equipment supplied with her new boat nine years ago.

 

[Zing]

Just noticed on the Jean Socrates thread that her OE mainsail has just started to fail after 2.5 plus circumnavigations.

I think that is quite astounding! Nearly 3 times around the world on equipment supplied with her new boat nine years ago.

It is extremely good. I've been through three sets of sails, which lasted on average 5.5 years and much less than half the miles in the best case.

 

[Kukri]

I noticed with some amusement that practically the only spare that the boat came with was a spare Jabso toilet seat! This may say more about HM Armed Forces than it does about Jabsco toilets. I suspect the sellers had stowed it so carefully that they couldn’t find it when they were taking everything moveable off the boat!

Now, if they had left the bimini frame, that would have been worth having (and worth nothing to anyone else...)

 

[dom]

Just noticed on the Jean Socrates thread that her OE mainsail has just started to fail after 2.5 plus circumnavigations.

I think that is quite astounding! Nearly 3 times around the world on equipment supplied with her new boat nine years ago.

True.

In fact, the combination of big technological strides in high-modulus fibres, a highly competitive sail-making industry, and a diverse offshore racing scene where sail changes increasingly incur penalty points, all work in the consumers favour.

Something similar applies to most other nautical equipment.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Sailing is like all other walks of life and purchases you get what you pay for. Tools are the best example I can think of, you can buy cheap stuff that will do the job once or perhaps a few more times or you can pay more and buy something that will stand reasonable intermittent use or you can pay top whack and buy something that you can use everyday for a lifetime. Sailing and Tool users have the same types of people in them ranging from professionals through those that can afford and like to buy the best to those at the other extreme that will buy the cheapest they can find and expect it to last a lifetime and complain when it doesn't. The expression I use is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Manufacturers will take advantage of them by building stuff down to a price that will perform for a period but not a lifetime nor will it stand the abuse of doing something beyond its meagre design parameters although inevitably people will use a 3 foot extension bar on the end of a cheap spanner and wonder why it bends or the jaws open. Then there are those that will buy a tiller pilot designed for a 26 foot 2 tonne boat and wonder why it gives up the ghost on their 32 foot 5 tonne boat.

 

[Heckler]

Do engine peripherals, gearboxes and sterngear really "fall apart regularly"? Not in most people's experience.

Are marine toilets really useless? There are service parts (rubber seals and valves) which need replacing from time to time, otherwise they're fairly robust.

I agree. Phew! Getting a habit this!
My Jabsco toilet rebuild was done two years ago and just recently redone. The flap valve and to a lesser extent the joker valve were past there best. There wasnt much build up of salts, I make sure the pump is used the recommended 6 times to flush urine out. The piston O ring is still OK although 5 years old.

 

[Kukri]

Sailing is like all other walks of life and purchases you get what you pay for. Tools are the best example I can think of, you can buy cheap stuff that will do the job once or perhaps a few more times or you can pay more and buy something that will stand reasonable intermittent use or you can pay top whack and buy something that you can use everyday for a lifetime. Sailing and Tool users have the same types of people in them ranging from professionals through those that can afford and like to buy the best to those at the other extreme that will buy the cheapest they can find and expect it to last a lifetime and complain when it doesn't. The expression I use is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Manufacturers will take advantage of them by building stuff down to a price that will perform for a period but not a lifetime nor will it stand the abuse of doing something beyond its meagre design parameters although inevitably people will use a 3 foot extension bar on the end of a cheap spanner and wonder why it bends or the jaws open. Then there are those that will buy a tiller pilot designed for a 26 foot 2 tonne boat and wonder why it gives up the ghost on their 32 foot 5 tonne boat.

Exactly.