Applicable laws when overseas.

[michael_w]

A few years ago SWMBO and I got hassled by the sheriff in Greenport NY. for not having dinghy registration numbers, nor lifejackets, We explained that as a visiting yacht we had a federal cruising licence number and our UK registration didn't separate the tender from the mother ship. His reply was 'Are you arguing with me?' Me, 'No sir I never argue with someone who's got a gun,'

An ear bashing later we were let off with a suggestion that we stuck a copy of the cruising licence to the dinghy's thwart and wear a life jacket.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

A few years ago SWMBO and I got hassled by the sheriff in Greenport NY. for not having dinghy registration numbers, nor lifejackets, We explained that as a visiting yacht we had a federal cruising licence number and our UK registration didn't separate the tender from the mother ship. His reply was 'Are you arguing with me?' Me, 'No sir I never argue with someone who's got a gun,'

An ear bashing later we were let off with a suggestion that we stuck a copy of the cruising licence to the dinghy's thwart and wear a life jacket.

The USA seems particularly badly infected with that kind of tin-pot dictator mentality. I have encountered it in other areas (I'm unlikely to ever reach the USA by boat), but I recognize the attitude. My late wife and I last encountered it on entering the USA from Canada - I hadn't done the visa waiver thing, and I recognized that I needed to do it - that wasn't the problem. But my wife HAD a visa because her passport was BN(O), and we'd spent a day in London getting it! The official still insisted she had to do the visa waiver thing., and at the time we weren't quite confident enough of our grounds to challenge it - it was easier just to do it. But we did check and she didn't need it! But I'd encountered it several times previously on trips to the USA.

 

[dunedin]

A few years ago SWMBO and I got hassled by the sheriff in Greenport NY. for not having dinghy registration numbers, nor lifejackets, We explained that as a visiting yacht we had a federal cruising licence number and our UK registration didn't separate the tender from the mother ship. His reply was 'Are you arguing with me?' Me, 'No sir I never argue with someone who's got a gun,'

An ear bashing later we were let off with a suggestion that we stuck a copy of the cruising licence to the dinghy's thwart and wear a life jacket.

Things like wearing a life jacket in a dinghy, if that is the rule in Florida, surely a UK boat should comply with that rule.
It seems analogous to wearing a seabelt in a car, you wouldn’t get away with driving in the UK and claiming the mandatory seatbelt wearing law didnt apply to a US registered car.
As the early posts have indicated, rights of “innocent passage” generally don’t apply when cruising within a country’s coastal waters (as opposed to passing straight through, when you wouldn’t be using a tender)

 

[Daydream believer]

What did I tell you--- Very next post---


[Quote Daydream Believer }
Oh come off it!! This is the PBO forum. Who needs facts?
What the OP needs are replies starting with-- "I do not know but" --followed by a full list of the things that they think might be the full facts, . Thus starting a slanging match circa post 96. Whereupon everyone gives up & starts another thread; leaving the Op scratching his head & wondering why he bothered

If you are an RYA member try asking them, as i think they have looked into this.
I am no expert, but AFAIK they decided this was ambiguous and might need to go to court to determine (ie very expensive abroad). Flag state rules apply if on innocent passage. But a boat ordinarily in another country for a while cruising about may not fit that definition. Hence the theory that only flag state rules apply could turn out to be a bar room myth.

 

[dunedin]

What did I tell you--- Very next post---


[Quote Daydream Believer }
Oh come off it!! This is the PBO forum. Who needs facts?
What the OP needs are replies starting with-- "I do not know but" --followed by a full list of the things that they think might be the full facts, . Thus starting a slanging match circa post 96. Whereupon everyone gives up & starts another thread; leaving the Op scratching his head & wondering why he bothered

Except that I subsequently provided a link to the RYA’s assessment of the legal position - which I was already familiar with and informed my post. But with legal matters, always better to include the disclaimer
PS The “theory” I referred to was not mine, but the RYA assessment - I described as a theory as they suggested that would need to go to court to establish definitively, and that could be very costly for whomever sought to try to push this

 

[Daydream believer]

Except that I subsequently provided a link to the RYA’s assessment of the legal position - which I was familiar with and informed my post.

Please do not take it to heart. I was only joking
Besides we need to get to #96 before we have a slanging match

 

[capnsensible]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

 

[zoidberg]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Park anywhere and carry your ICC at all times....?

 

[Daydream believer]

.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I do not think that you are allowed to feed immigrants to the lions in the coluseum any more

 

[Seven Spades]

If flag state laws applies it will be interesting to see how Sweden applies the law to the shipmen on the Scot

Earlier, prosecutors opened a case into 'criminal negligence', which was soon widened to include claims of drunkenness after 'one or more' of the Scot's crew tested positive for alcohol in their blood, the coast guard said.
Two men - a 30-year-old Briton and a 56-year-old Croatian - have since been arrested on suspicion of gross negligence at sea, severe marine intoxication and involuntary homicide.

The legal limit in Sweden and England are very different. What they see as "Severe marine intoxication" might not be how we see it.

It is reported that the limit in Sweden is 0.02 and 0.05 in England.

 

[awol]

If flag state laws applies it will be interesting to see how Sweden applies the law to the shipmen on the Scot



The legal limit in Sweden and England are very different. What they see as "Severe marine intoxication" might not be how we see it.

It is reported that the limit in Sweden is 0.02 and 0.05 in England.

What's England got to do with it?

 

[Seven Spades]

Different limites in Scotland

 

[dunedin]

What's England got to do with it?

Possibly because “Scot Line” is a company with headquarters in Essex (in spite of its name and colourful logo)

 

[awol]

Possibly because “Scot Line” is a company with headquarters in Essex (in spite of its name and colourful logo)

If it was the Railways Act that applied then UK law but in Swedish waters like on Swedish roads, their game, their rules. You didn't think I was implying anything else, did you?

 

[skipmac]

Well for what it's worth, here's some experience and opinion from a US cruiser,

First, you have to realize that you can be dealing with a number of different authorities, many of them certain they rule their particular piece of the water. There are of course the federal authorities, mainly USCG and CBP (Customs and Border Patrol). Then various local agencies including state, county and city. To further confuse things there can be more than one state authority like the marine patrol (basically state level water police) and fisheries types.

AND each state can have different regulations regarding registration, safety, etc. Also cities and counties. To make matters worse, especially with the local authorities, the guy you're dealing with may have at best a foggy understanding of the various laws and how or to whom it applies.

OK, that's the facts, now for some semi educated opinion. As I understand it, a cruising boat is subject only to the regulations of her country of registry, at least as far as that applies to registration, taxes, dinghies, safety equipment (see the court cases in New Zealand a few years ago when they tried to force visiting cruisers to follow local safety regulations) etc. Of course felony law applies in the country where you are. Just because it's legal for example, to smoke pot in one's home country, that doesn't make it legal in the US.

But on a practical basis yes, never argue with someone carrying a gun. Have had a few friends stopped by water cops in Florida for unregistered dinghies that was legal back home. Friends explained, cops complained but in the end let it slide. Regardless I would try to comply with local safety regs like life jackets, lights, etc.

 

[Dave100456]

Well for what it's worth, here's some experience and opinion from a US cruiser,

First, you have to realize that you can be dealing with a number of different authorities, many of them certain they rule their particular piece of the water. There are of course the federal authorities, mainly USCG and CBP (Customs and Border Patrol). Then various local agencies including state, county and city. To further confuse things there can be more than one state authority like the marine patrol (basically state level water police) and fisheries types.

AND each state can have different regulations regarding registration, safety, etc. Also cities and counties. To make matters worse, especially with the local authorities, the guy you're dealing with may have at best a foggy understanding of the various laws and how or to whom it applies.

OK, that's the facts, now for some semi educated opinion. As I understand it, a cruising boat is subject only to the regulations of her country of registry, at least as far as that applies to registration, taxes, dinghies, safety equipment (see the court cases in New Zealand a few years ago when they tried to force visiting cruisers to follow local safety regulations) etc. Of course felony law applies in the country where you are. Just because it's legal for example, to smoke pot in one's home country, that doesn't make it legal in the US.

But on a practical basis yes, never argue with someone carrying a gun. Have had a few friends stopped by water cops in Florida for unregistered dinghies that was legal back home. Friends explained, cops complained but in the end let it slide. Regardless I would try to comply with local safety regs like life jackets, lights, etc.

Hi Skipmac
Thanks for the response. Your understanding and input from US sailors is right on the money and succinctly sets out the complexities of compliance in US waters. It’s not as simple as some on here make out and when sailing 1000+M south through 6 States each with different State, County and town laws and varying interpretations of National law!
Thanks again

 

[dslittle]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Surely you mean “when in Marineria Italiana Abbigliamento Nautico Sportivo…”

 

[kof]

I was stopped a couple of years back in No name, Florida. Cop (with a gun!) said my dingy needed a Florida reg on it and insisted that it didn’t matter even if I was a visitor. Told him he was being stupid as there was no legal way of doing so.

So I also asked if all U.S. drivers had to change their car license plates when crossing to border into Mexico or Canada for a quick visit. He mumbled, shuffled a bit and told me to be on my way.

Wearing a life jacket or sticking to the No wake rules are things you can do , cost you nothing and help you comply with their rules. Registration and other bits of paperwork are impossible to legally comply with.

I’m on limited internet and with a 5 hr time difference so apologies for the late response….
Thank you to those who replied with their informative links and interpretations of this situation, all very useful.
As someone pointed out asking officials here is not the most accurate source of info as the rules are interpreted in a very local manner that varies not only from one County and/or State to another but also indeed from one official to another. Case in point with CBP; some officers require me report my vessel movements (even if only 5M) whilst other officers only want a report as you move States. Some even say report only when in a marina ( which we never use) and no need to report at anchor. Some CBP officers are very helpful and some want you to know they have the power, uniform and a gun!!
I’d be interested to know how many sub 10ft tenders in the UK are equipped with fire extinguishers as I’m told is the law here in Florida. If fire broke out on my tender, I’d be in the water pronto rather than reaching for an extinguisher!

 

[Slowboat35]

Nonetheless if authorities want to exceed their remit they can and sometimes will do so - viz France and out of date pyros and Belgium with red diesel.

 

[dunedin]

Nonetheless if authorities want to exceed their remit they can and sometimes will do so - viz France and out of date pyros and Belgium with red diesel.

Except that, per posts #12, #14, #15 etc, and the legal advice obtained by the RYA, the French authorities probably are well within their legal remit in applying their rules to vessels within their waters (other than vessels on “innocent passage”, that is an extremely limited applicability to a cruising yacht as post #15 explains).
Local laws apply to a huge range of things - try bringing a firearm to the UK on your yacht for example, and see how well that goes.